#111: Are pioneers better at learning or unlearning?

-- Intro music of The Green Room begins, followed by an introduction from the host. -- 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Knowledge is power. We build expertise, gain experience, then trust it to guide our biggest decisions. But what if the things we think we know are holding us back? Sometimes moving forward means letting go of assumptions that once helped us succeed. Today we ask: Are pioneers better at learning or unlearning? 

-- The podcast transitions into showcasing highlight clips from the upcoming episode. -- 

Alice John (Guest) 

I think we do have a tendency to fall back on what we know or there’s a tried and tested path here and we need to continue on that path. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

There was so much that they didn’t know about building a sports team and operating in the sports ecosystem that actually helped them to show up and do it really differently. 

Alice John (Guest) 

I think what pioneers do, what visionaries do, is ask well what if there’s a different way? What’s the cut through? How can we do something differently? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

If there’s not that culture of support, owning your mistakes, learning from it and moving on. I think it’s really hard to get to innovation. 

Alice John (Guest) 

You always have to keep an eye on the vision, and actually what is that north star? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

If you’re not taking those calculated risks, how can you actually innovate to push the business forward? 

-- The podcast music ends and it transitions into the main episode, starting with our hosts introduction -- 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Welcome to The Green Room by Deloitte. You might notice we're in a different location today. We're filming at Stamford Bridge for Leaders Week London. I'm Jenny Haskel and I'm joined by my co-host Oli Carpenter. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Hi, Jenny. Well, today I'm really looking forward to the discussion. We are joined by Jasmine Robinson, co-founder and managing partner at Monarch Collective, a fund investing in women's sports teams, leagues and rights. And she's fresh from the business and leadership stage here at Leaders Week London, where the schedule is jam packed. So welcome, Jasmine. Thanks for joining us. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Thanks for having me. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And we're also joined by Alice John, who leads development and growth advisory in Deloitte's Sports Business Group. Welcome. 

Alice John (Guest) 

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Great to have you. We often assume that the more we know, the more skilled and capable we become. Jasmine, I'd be interested to hear from you. Is there something that springs to mind that you can do now that you couldn't do five years ago? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

It's a good question. I feel like I've been refining my golf game. So I feel like my iron shots were not very good five years ago. But I feel like I'm on the journey to be a better golfer. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Fantastic, I love that. And what about you, Alice? 

Alice John (Guest) 

Oh my goodness, I've learned so much in the last five years. So I'll talk about work first and then I'll maybe do some personal things as well. Before five years ago, I wasn't in Deloitte. I was working in a boutique consulting firm working on some brilliant projects around impact in sport, largely with public sector. And so I made the transition into a big four. And what that has enabled me to do is just learn about delivering projects of scale and complexity and ambition and everything that kind of goes along with that. So probably too many to call out. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Alice, you talked a little bit about the impact on those visionary projects in your work in sport. Can you give us an example of one that's made a real impact? 

Alice John (Guest) 

Yeah. So the biggest example right now is the Birmingham Sports Quarter project. So we advise Knighthead Capital on that project. We're the lead advisors on this visionary, ambitious kind of programme which will transform the east of Birmingham, centred on a stadium. But what can that deliver in terms of entertainment, residential community provision? How can that transform that part of the city which has been under-invested in for decades? Right. So... and there's so much learning that I'm sure we'll get into as part of the conversation that is happening as part of that project when those two worlds kind of come together. 

So private investors kind of what they're looking for in terms of their returns, their outcomes, their fan engagement, and then the public sector, what they're looking to achieve in terms of, you know, community opportunities, social opportunities, growth opportunities. And I think for us, it's really exciting to help kind of steer that, help them kind of find a middle ground that can drive some of those kind of transformational kind of ambitions that the project has. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And through those ambitious projects, we talk about knowledge acquisition over time, which then becomes experience. What does experience give you that knowledge alone cannot? 

Alice John (Guest) 

As a professional, experience just helps me know how to operate in an environment, right? you know, I'm in a pressure environment with stakeholders that might have seemingly competing kind of objectives or competing ways of kind of looking at the same problem. And because I've been in a similar situation in the past, I kind of know how to navigate it better than I perhaps would have when I was starting out. There are also, you know, members of the team that have a deep, deep knowledge in this subject matter, which is really important for those projects which are complex and need technical expertise to be in the room. 

But I think the ability to kind of bring people together, integrate, find solutions is probably driven by my experience. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And as you mentioned, the experience sharpens your thinking a bit. It gives you a bit more confidence in the decisions that you're making because you've been there. But experience can also prevent us from seeing new opportunities. So, Jasmine, did you realise that there was a need for dedicated women's sport investment from your previous experience, which happens to be very varied across the industry? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, I mean, I think it was a combination of that knowledge and experience, right. I think it was some of the things that I studied and learned and some of the personal journeys that I went into which I can talk about. And then I think it was also the experience of having operated in a lot of these spaces. And I think it was the way those two things came together that really led to founding Monarch. 

I think on the knowledge side, I spent a lot of time. I even remember in a class in college, I wrote a paper about why the NFL grew so large in the post-Cold War era and what were like the societal elements and cultural elements that showed up there. And I think it was almost learning and studying that, that made me start to think about what are the societal and cultural context that we have today. That actually was setting up women's sports to really encounter this inflection point growth in 2022 when we were first launching Monarch. And so I think it was, some of that knowledge. 

But I think it was also the experience, having operated across the sports ecosystem, really, having close relationships with a lot of sports team owners, operators, brands, media companies, knowing the ways those stakeholders would show up in the world helped me to understand, okay, if I go to someone with this idea or if I'm trying to build or scale a business in this way, I kind of know how that conversation is going to go, and I have some of the relationships to go start having those conversations quickly. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

It's an excellent point you make. I'd be curious to know a bit more in terms of the experience points specifically because you can't fast track experience, but what could someone without that experience bring that an expert in the field might miss? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the fun things that my partner and co-founder, Kara often says about when they were launching Angel City was, there was so much that they didn't know about building a sports team and operating in the sports ecosystem that actually helped them to show up and do it really differently in the way that they built Angel City. And I think a lot of that led to scale of them being able to go from 0 to $30 million in revenue in their first year, because they weren't held back by preconceptions of what was possible, and instead really could lean into the art of the possible. And so I think that really helps. 

And so we think a lot about when we're building management teams within these women's sports properties, how are we bringing in people who, yes, have some of that sports operating experience, but then how are we complementing them with people who come from entirely different fields and bringing that diversity of thought and the innovation that comes as a result, I think helps to ensure that, yeah, you don't get held back by the way, something's always been done. 

Alice John (Guest) 

Yeah. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Fresh pair of eyes on everything. Right? Yeah? 

Alice John (Guest) 

I'm sure you'll have some perspectives on this. We were with some leaders from women's football teams in Manchester the other day, and they were just reflecting on really simple things, seemingly, that they need to unlearn or break the mould on around the season ticket model, which, you know, in the UK market, there's been a lift and shift of that into the women's game. 

And actually, that doesn't really work with what we're offering our fans and how our fans are kind of showing up at matches and all of that kind of stuff, and it felt like a really simple example, but a really interesting example of how you need to rethink what you've always done as a sport, when it's actually a different proposition and a different fanbase in a different way of kind of going to market. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, and I think that's such a good point. I think this unlearning topic is a big one for a lot of clubs who for so long have focussed on how do I grow my men's team, and then how do I then also devote some capital to my women's team to grow it? But maybe that's not a central focus. I think we're so shifting into this era where there are so many more people now who really want to, who care about scaling their women's football team. But maybe there is so much of that entrenched learning that thinking about how you bring the fresh eyes to it can be a hard thing to do. 

And so I think that's one of the fun ways that we like to show up a little bit in the ecosystem is how can we spend time with people and maybe share some of the things we're experiencing at the teams that we work with? Or what we're seeing that works in this market that actually doesn't work in another market. And how can the learnings that we've gotten actually just help others in the ecosystem because this women's sport space is such a “rising tide lifts all boats” situation, especially now. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And the points you both make around that unlearning point is really useful and very interesting and kind of what we're going to move on to now, really, because we know that learning adds to what we know. Experience helps us recognise those patterns and trust our own judgement. But those patterns are very often based on what has worked before. And we know the world is moving at such a fast pace. So, Alice, is there a moment that... where something you were once certain about turned out to no longer be useful, or even that it was holding you back? 

Alice John (Guest) 

I think my reflection would be, and this comes back to this kind of role that we play between the public sector and the private sector, on big stadium led infrastructure regeneration projects. There's a certain, I think, thought process that I had around the way that projects should be run, the way that a public sector might engage with the private sector in order to kind of enact a programme. The, the structures, the processes, the ways of doing things that had, you know, to a certain extent, the public sector really well. And I was very familiar with that from my background. 

You know, a lot of my work has been around advising government on how do you evaluate economic impacts and how do you deliver more impact. And so I was very familiar with that world. I think what the Birmingham Sports Quarter project, if I can kind of talk about that again, has taught me, is that there are opportunities to unlearn some of that. 

And actually there's a need to unlearn some of that, because when you're working with private capital that has a very ambitious vision and a time scale and a kind of a, you know, a desire to get things done and get things done quickly, then you have to unlearn some of the stuff that you had learned around how do you get things done? And, you know, that's also about US investors and the UK market. And what can they learn from one another? That's a kind of a very interesting thing in terms of how the two different cultures operate. 

And for me, I've learnt a lot from working with US investors around, you know, pace and urgency and ambition and vision and “let's try it a different way.” And I think on that point, it can be culture that's something different. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

But I think there are all these different ways that context can shift where you're certain about something, but actually you maybe don't realise that the context has shifted or you're not paying attention to what are the reasons that something's different in a market, in a sport, you know, in just what the passage of time and what's happening in culture more broadly does. And so one of the fun things is making sure that we're all spending time observing how is this ecosystem unfolding at a time when everything's changing so rapidly? And I think a lot of being in the thick of that context. 

Alice John (Guest) 

And how are you looking outside sport as well? And I'm sure you guys do this so much, you know, how are you tracking those macro trends that actually are going to be shifting where the industry goes? We do a lot of work around sportainment sport-entertainment inspired by the US. You know, how are we as an industry kind of serving our fans, but also thinking about where next and where are those next opportunities going to come from in terms of, the fan offer, the kind of adjacencies, etc.? 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Jasmine, in the years since co-founding Monarch, you talked about the pace of the industry. Have there been any assumptions that you had at the beginning that you've now had to leave behind years on? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, I think probably at the beginning I underestimated how much existing structures in a space that was still early would be, an important piece of the journey that this space would go on. I think, you know, in some ways you feel like, oh, this is a brand new league that's being built or, you know, an era where a league's getting spun out or reformed or changed and you forget how much still, there are a lot of regulatory dynamics, fan-learned behaviours, existing infrastructure that you're working with. 

There are lots of different systemic elements that you really have to get pragmatic about how you build within those systems versus I think I probably assumed that there would be a little bit more room to have a blank slate, blank sheet of paper. And so I guess it's good that I've spent a lot of time also operating within, you know, men's leagues like the NFL or building and investing in companies that work across lots of different pieces of the sports ecosystem so that I understand where some of those dynamics are. 

But yeah, I think that was something where my learning has evolved, and now I think it just helps us to go faster and get things done. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And when you go to fundraise, is there anything in your pitch that you have to get others to unlearn or to challenge their own assumptions when you're speaking about the investment opportunities? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, I mean, I feel like that question is, you know, it's been so different over the years when we've raised capital, when we first went out into the market to fundraise for Monarch, it was January of 2023, and we were talking a lot about how we thought women's football and women's basketball were incredible opportunities, and we'd invest against it. And at the time people were like, women's football, I get it. That totally makes sense. But women's basketball, does anyone actually want to watch it? 

And you know, we would try to make our case, but we encountered a lot of people who said, do you think maybe if they lowered the hoops more people would tune in or you know, what's missing in the ecosystem? And then a couple months later, it was that March Madness that broke crazy viewership records. And any pitches we made after that, it was a lot easier. And you didn't have people needing to unlearn that women's basketball wasn't interesting because they then had this joyful activation moment of what this incredible product of women's basketball can be. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And when we think about some of those success stories, I think it can be very hard for us to let go of something that has helped make a project or what we're working on successful. Why do you think that is? Alice? 

Alice John (Guest) 

Well, I guess it's just it's human nature, right? We kind of, you know, and perhaps pioneers are pioneering because they don't have that same instinct. But I think we do have a tendency to fall back on what we know. Or there's a tried and tested path here, and we need to kind of continue on that path. I think what pioneers do, what visionaries do, is kind of ask, “well, what if there's a different way,” what's the cut through? How can we do something differently? And that's why a lot of the clients that I work with that have this incredible vision. I think that's why people want to get on their bus, because they show them a different way. 

And that's really exciting. But it's not something that comes easily to everybody because I think, you know, there's this a comfort in doing the same thing. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And with that comfort, how do you know when the right time is to take a risk? Alice I'll follow up with you and then I'll ask you Jasmine. 

Alice John (Guest) 

Yeah. I mean, I'll talk about my personal career journey, maybe for this one. So I have always just gone... I don't have a classic career path. I started in working in theatres and then I worked in music education. And then I, you know, worked in boutiques. And I think I've always felt I've always had a gut instinct as to when it was the right moment to take a risk or take that next step and push myself out of my comfort zone. For me, it is an instinct. And I think for a lot of people that are pioneering visionaries, they have that kind of, you know, gut feeling. We talk about it a lot. 

That's how I've managed my career, if you like. There's never been a five-year plan. It's always been around, where am I? What's the next opportunity? And kind of following my gut and going with it. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, yeah. I think it's an interesting one. I think about it as calculated risk, I guess. It feels like at any given moment, hopefully you're surrounded by people that helped you to open up and have perspective on the whole list of possible risks you could be taking at any given moment, or new ways you could innovate. And it's kind of about, okay, how do I, if I'm seeing all of these opportunities, which ones are the calculated risks that I want to take? I think is such an important topic. 

And, you know, it's what we end up talking a lot with our portfolio companies about because we say, well, let's not just keep doing it this way because it's been working well, why don't we see what are the areas where we maybe want to test what it means to sell tickets a different way or to pitch a sponsorship asset in, you know, that's non-traditional, what are those smart risks that we want to take and we want to be capital efficient. So you can't just always be risk taking and always risking so much of what's happening in the business. 

But, I think if you're not taking those calculated risks, how can you actually innovate to push the business forward? And so I think having dialogue and structure around the way that you make those risky bets and then understanding what information you gather after you make those bets, you know, in case you need to change course. I feel like in that context, it almost makes risk feel less scary, where I think sometimes it can feel scary for folks. 

Alice John (Guest) 

It's like knowledge acquisition, like you're learning from it. So you're taking a risk, but you're kind of, you know, using that then to develop your plan. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, exactly. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And I feel like at the stage that women's sport is in right now, we often talk about testing and learning. And that means you get the knowledge acquisition. But then you might change course. When you do change your mind, do you fear that people might lose confidence in the decision that you made? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah. I mean, I think it really depends on the culture within which you're you're taking that risk. I think our team at Monarch very much has this culture where you should be taking risks. And if you do the wrong thing or, or kind of go out on a limb to go do X, and it didn't work, knowing that you kind of have the safety and security that we all want to be taking risks and we all own them together, learn from them together and move forward. 

I think that creates the space to do it, because I do think if there's not that culture of, support, owning your mistakes, learning from it and moving on, I think it's really hard to get to innovation. Yeah, I think, I never at Monarch feel worried about taking risks. As long as I'm taking calculated risks and I'm sharing with people, you know, why I think we're doing what we're doing, and then we can learn from it if it goes wrong. And so I hope I create that space for the team that we're building and the partners that we work with as well. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And when you're taking those risks or challenging assumptions, are you doing that constantly or is it something you have to deliberately make time for? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

That's a good question. I mean, I think some of it just happens intentionally, especially around like the things that I'm doing on a day-to-day basis. I think investment is always risk taking in a sense. If you're making a bet that everyone's ready to make in exactly the same way you're making it, there's probably not much return there. You do kind of need to be moving in ways where, you know, other people are seeing risk where you're not. 

I think that was really fundamental to our core thesis at Monarch was really about other people were really seeing a lot more risk in women's sports in the kinds of assets we were looking at than we felt like was actually there in the market. And then they also were misjudging what the upside opportunity was. And so if we could go into those spaces where other people were seeing risk, but we felt like we were seeing conditions and information and learnings that helped us to to know that actually maybe that assessment is off. 

I think that's a lot of the ways we've been able to move quickly into spaces that have continued to grow and really feel like strong bets for us, whether it's some of our investments in the NWSL or in the WNBA. At times when people said, you know, “Wow, those feel like really big valuations to be paying for a team.” But our team in Boston paid an expansion fee, as has been widely reported, of $53 million. And the most recent expansion fee in the NWSL was reported at $205 million. 

So while people thought that $53 million risk was a big one, I think we really felt like in the context of our learnings that we were that was a risk that felt like a really balanced one to take. So, yeah, I feel like that that is very deliberately built into the process of what is the work at Monarch? I think probably where we have to push more is thinking about our portfolio companies. 

There's so much that you need to do and like the day-to-day running of the business and being focussed on, you know, how do you sell sponsorships and sell tickets and deliver the game-day experience and build fanbase and like pulling back to say, how are we zooming up on what we can do, what's beyond the normal day-to-day running of the business and what must get done to actually push into risk and innovation. 

We've been trialling different ways to go about doing that because I think it's so important, but it can get lost in the, you know, if you don't have good process around it, it can get lost in the flow. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Yeah, finding the balance between being agile and looking at those, those normal processes. We're going to move on to explore how we distinguish which assumptions might be holding us back and the actions that we need to take. But first, a message about one of Deloitte's social impact partners. 

-- The podcast transitions into an episode break for a Social Impact message from our host, with background music -- 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

We've spoken lots in The Green Room about AI's potential to transform how we all work. But for many charities, getting started isn't simple. That's why Deloitte are proud to support CAST, the Centre for the Acceleration of Social Technology through our social impact programme. Together, we're helping charities explore and adopt AI in a responsible way, building the skills, tools and confidence they need to make it work for them and shape AI use across the sector. Search 'CAST worthwhile AI' to find out more. 

-- The podcast transitions back to the main episode as the music ends -- 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

So we've established that both learning and unlearning can move us forward, and the difficult part of that is judgement. Knowing when experience should guide us and when it needs to be challenged. Alice, we know sport carries a huge amount of history and tradition, but how do organisations distinguish between what gives them their identity and what may be holding them back? 

Alice John (Guest) 

Wow, that is such a big question because particularly my experience from the UK market, and particularly if we look at football decades, centuries of kind of fanship for a football club and everything that that kind of brings. They are the hearts of communities. They have fans that have been kind of with them for generations that are so important, that are the club and have a certain way of engaging with the club and kind of, you know, expectations around what a matchday will feel like and all of that good stuff. And I think the best ownership and management groups understand that and know that that is your soul as a football club. 

The challenge then for our clients is how do you kind of look after that fan base whilst going into new markets? And that's around, you know, fan acquisition strategies, how are you thinking about the offer in the stadium, the offer before and afterwards that caters for different groups? If I go to watch a football match, it's likely that I might spend more on hospitality. It's likely that I might have a different expectation than perhaps, you know, a season ticket holder. So I think where you see that innovation around hospitality, pricing, product kind of merchandise, it is about how you’re tailoring to those different markets. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

I think one of the interesting ones to watch is the evolution of, actually women's soccer in the US, where I feel like for a long time there's been this core fanbase that was really showing up when no one else was that was really dialled in, really following the players closely, showing up to matches for a long, long time. And as we've seen, women's soccer in the US start to grow. A lot of new fans started coming into the space. 

One of the fun things to watch has been the different ways that clubs have thought about, you know, really creating that cohesive, inclusive environment that, you know, was that real special sauce of what made people want to show up in the past, but do that while welcoming in a lot of different types of people. And so I think that's a fun example of how you can kind of keep the spirit while innovating and moving into a new commercial era. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Have there been any opportunities that women's sport has left behind in terms of values while it's been growing? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Maybe the value that's been left behind and to me is probably a little bit for the better is that women's sport is this product that's almost like a charity or something that you should support or should do. And actually, no, at the end of the day, this is an incredible, exciting product. And how do we build a great experience around it and actually do the work to be deserving of commanding, you know, new record-setting partnership deals and media rights deals and really build the audience that is really there for joy and not for totally a cause. 

And I think there's still that like the cause that connects you to it. But I think like if joy is the beginning through line, I think that's actually like a much healthier way to build the businesses for decades to come. And so I think that's been a good mindset shift. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

That's really interesting. And how do you decide what now to learn more about and the assumptions that are worth challenging? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

It's a little bit about what's the right knowledge point. But I think it's also about what do you have access to in terms of data. How can you collect it? What are the proxies that there are to have it? Because I think, you know, at the end of the day more information is better, but you have to be pragmatic around what can I actually collect, what can I actually then cohesively organise and then what's actually going to be actionable if I did understand it. 

And so I think we're often, you know, obsessed with learning more about the fan base, pushing ourselves on, you know, how do we build in and grow the base, who's really most engaged? And I think, you know, stepping back a little bit and saying, okay, what are... if we knew our fanbase better, what are the actions that we're going to take? And then really like connecting that through to then, okay, here's the action plan of what we really need to know first has been a great way to prioritise and think about what we can tackle to start. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And Alice, what about you? When you think about what to learn more about as you speak to a broad market? 

Alice John (Guest) 

Yeah. Well, for us I guess when we're advising our clients, it's... and we were talking about kind of keeping your eye on the future and what are those macro trends that are driving opportunity in the sports industry. I think it's really important that we're always learning more about that, and able to then kind of, you know, share that with our clients. So for example, in the UK market, how is entertainment and the entertainment offer going to continue to shape how sports rights holders, clubs, leagues think about their proposition? And what are we learning from the music industry? The kind of immersive entertainment that we can borrow and learn and bring into our sector. 

And as an advisor, I think being able to look ahead and see what those trends are is really important for us when we're working with our clients. I think there is, you know, the projects that we advise on are there is an element of the fairly technical... There is an element where you need architects and planners and master planners and business planners. 

And so it's really important that you, as well as future gazing, as well as keeping an eye on future trends, that you know, those topics inside out, because ultimately that can be the making or the breaking of some of these projects that you have a deep industry expertise, a deep kind of technical knowledge that you're able to call on in order to kind of answer the questions and develop the programme. But with all of that, because of the complexity of the project, the main thing I would say is that you always have to keep an eye on the vision. 

And actually, what is that North Star and what is the most important knowledge acquisition that's going to enable me to continue to deliver on that North Star? And if you're looking at five-, ten-, twenty-year programmes, that is absolutely critical in terms of delivering on the vision. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

If we build on that for a second, if you observe that results are starting to move in the wrong direction. How do you judge whether to change course or hold your nerve? 

Alice John (Guest) 

There will be lots of little things that go wrong along the way, right? And so you have to be able to determine, is this kind of mission-critical or is it not? Is it actually okay that that hasn't quite gone to plan because it's not one of our core objectives that is enabling us to enact on the final vision? So I think that it's learning to let go of the smaller stuff that you would have liked to have gone your way, but it's kind of fine that it hasn't. 

And it's really keeping a focus on what are the core priorities that we have as a project over the next five to ten years that are going to enable us to kind of deliver the objectives? I think it’s really important that you have an ability to keep coming back to the vision, the North Star, where we're trying to get to collectively as a partnership. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

I think the flip side of that, like one of the things that we see a lot is, you know, you're operating in women's sports in this industry that has huge tailwinds. And sometimes there are things that are going right. But actually, you should be course correcting because you're mistaking good for what could be great. And so I think that's another thing we really try to push on is understanding, why is something trending in a certain way? What is the context? What else is possible? 

And make sure that it's not only something could be going wrong because of a macro environment, but actually you're still doing the right thing and something else that could be going right for that reason. And so making sure... push a lot on, pulling the thread of why. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And in that context, when you are doing some of that course correction, how do you maintain the confidence of your people? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, a lot of that is really bringing people along in your thought process and journey for what your vision... you know, what is the overall mission and vision that you're running towards? What is the plan and strategy and why is that the case? And so then when you have a change, you can say, well, here's what we learned that it was different than when we started. And so that's why we're making this next move. 

And so I think being really a clear communicator to your team about why you're making those decisions and then also, you know, a good listener, people have an alternative opinion and willing to change your mind if that's the case too. I think with that, people are really comfortable with the fact that you, you know, change your mind, make different decisions. And yeah, I think that's a lot better than a leader who, you know, has a perspective and sticks to it forever. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Can we become too eager to question our ways of working? Is that possible? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

There can be a desire to change and do something different, whatever. And maybe start pivoting too much rather than thinking about here's where we're going. And the old, you know, analogy of steering a boat and you think, I need to go there and you're doing this rather than, you know, slowly turning the wheel. And so I think it's all about balance. And maybe that gets a little bit back to the experience and knowing how fast to pivot, how often to pivot. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

And as we look to wrap up the conversation, we'd love to get some takeaway advice from both of you to give back to our listeners. When we think about the point around experience that we've spoken about, for those who currently lack that experience, what can they bring that those with experience might miss? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Maybe a willingness to engage in a discussion and take a different point of view? I always think about how can we build teams and rooms of people who are going to challenge assumptions and jump in and actually want to have a point of view on something and not be contrarian, to be contrarian, but really be willing to take a strong perspective and stand behind... you know, and be confident enough to jump in and disagree. In a world where I think people tend to feel like it's a lot safer to just agree with whatever's happening. 

And so I think being willing to be that voice in the room always makes me want to bring that person back into the room. And so I think that could be a great lesson. 

Alice John (Guest) 

Totally agree. I think you learn so much from I mean, junior people like younger people in my team. We were talking about it last night, how you consume sport, how you watch content. You know, I think there's always a perspective that they bring to a conversation that because of, you know, my age and the generation that I'm from and how I came up, I don't have. And I think that's particularly when you're talking about engaging the next generation of fans or what are the future trends, I think that's just invaluable. 

So I think being, you know, willing to be open, give your perspective, kind of give solutions, give perspectives, give points of view based on your own experiences is just definitely something that I encourage people to kind of bring to the table. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Excellent advice. Thank you. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

And you both just talked about challenging assumptions. So is there a practical tip that you can give to help us become better at challenging assumptions? Jasmine, I'll start with you. 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

Yeah. I mean, I think maybe being good at describing why you believe that. So trying to be good at painting the picture of, okay, here's an alternative perspective. What if we believed X? And that might make us go in this different direction? I think really being able to articulate that, like what's led you to arrive at that conclusion is a helpful way to bring other people along on, on really seeing and following your thread. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Yeah that's great advice. And so finally let's bring it back to the big question. Are pioneers better at learning or unlearning? Alice, we'll start with you. 

Alice John (Guest) 

I would say that pioneers learn quickly, but are not afraid of unlearning old stuff that doesn't serve them anymore. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

That's great. And Jasmine? 

Jasmine Robinson (Guest) 

I think it's definitely the people who can have strong opinions informed by experience, but hold them loosely enough to understand, you know, where they need to change and and unlearn things as a result. 

Jenny Haskel (Host) 

Thanks so much for joining us for the conversation. That was really interesting. 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Appreciate it. Thanks. 

-- Outro music of The Green Room begins followed by our host talking -- 

Oli Carpenter (Host) 

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Green Room, a Deloitte podcast. We release a new episode every other Tuesday with another big question, so don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening or watching, and make sure your notifications are on so that way you'll be alerted whenever a new episode drops. This podcast is produced by our very own Pod Squad. Original music by Ali Barrett. 

-- The podcast music fades up and the episode ends --