#110: What makes innovation worth backing?

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Hannah Gowen (Host)

Having the best idea doesn't mean anybody is ready to commit to it. A breakthrough technology or a new direction for a business. Both can inspire enthusiasm, but getting the support of people, time or money is another matter. What turns “this could work” into “I’ll back it”? And how much needs to be proven before someone takes that step? Today we ask: What makes innovation worth backing?

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Radhika Patel (Guest)

Don’t pitch the idea, pitch the evidence. It has to be more than just the idea, it has to be, “and here’s where I’ve proven that it can be a success”

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

How you go and pitch to VC investors, and then how you go and win debt finance for your project, it’s a different way of presenting yourself.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

What are they really thinking about? What are the key risks that they’re concerned about? How do I need to address that in my business?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

You build relationships, you get to know the people, you get to know the idea, you get to see them in the kind of environments that you were just describing. I think that’s incredibly important.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

It’s not just the house that’s investing in you, it’s the individual that’s sitting across the table.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

A great team and a bad idea is not going to succeed and nor is a great idea with a bad team.

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Hannah Gowen (Host)

Hello and welcome to The Green Room by Deloitte. I'm Hannah Gowen and I'm joined today by my co-host Jenny Haskel.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

Thanks, Hannah. And today we're joined by Sir Danny Alexander, CEO of HSBC Infrastructure Finance and Sustainability. Welcome, Danny.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

Thank you very much.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

And we're also joined by Rad Patel, director of life sciences and healthcare M&A advisory services at Deloitte. Welcome, Rad.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

Thank you for having me.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

So new ideas and innovations emerge all the time. But to create progress, innovation or an ambition to grow isn't enough on its own. Outside support might be needed to get an idea off the ground. So, Danny, I'm going to come to you first. We often think that if you have the best idea, people will back it. But does being a strong innovation alone guarantee success?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

No. One of the things we do in HSBC is we have a very strong climate tech business. Working with VC partners, we get to know early-stage companies. We onboard them as clients. We work with them as they're developing. So we see a lot of examples of success, and we see some examples where success isn't achieved. And there are a number of barriers if you've got a brilliant idea that you can kind of see a role for in the market, and one of those is connection to customers, especially where like in the space I'm working in climate, it can be energy startups, new energy ideas.

So if you want to go from having a great idea to deploying it at project scale, then you need a long term off-take contract. You need someone who is willing to buy the power that you're generating. Often that's a different skill-set for the company than the innovation and the idea itself. And so having the right team of people with the variety of skills that you need, not just to innovate, but then to deploy at scale, that's a big challenge for many companies.

And it's an area where, you know, partners, whether it's banks or others, can offer support in terms of connection to customers sharing experience, helping to understand what it takes to deploy a project at scale that can achieve financing for that project.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

Rad, when you're working with clients to secure that support, what is it that's being assessed exactly?

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I don't think it's the innovation itself that's being assessed. I think it's the commerciality of that innovation that's being assessed. So as Danny rightly mentioned, I think you can have this great product. You know, it's how do you then deploy that product. So are you able to demonstrate that there's a, you know, a large enough target addressable market for that product. What's the problem that the markets are really looking for? And have you found the right solution for that problem? How do you evidence that it's the right solution for that problem?

Have you managed to get that traction with some customers and not just in pilot stage, but actually customers that have bought the product, but then retaining those customers who are continuously buying that product. And then again. Have you got the right people to be able to take that product to market? Having the great technology is one thing, but having everything else and all the infrastructure around it and the evidence to be able to demonstrate that its a success, that's what investors are really looking for.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

And how much does who the opportunity is coming from influence the judgment in that situation?

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I think it's massive. I think it's really important in terms of both the founder that's actually built the technology, but also kind of the team around that founder who are helping to kind of bring that, that technology to market, that innovation to market. I think a lot of entrepreneurs quite often underestimate the value of ensuring that they are presenting how the team has helped him or her achieve their ambition, the experience of the team, the qualifications of the team. Their vision, their passion for what they're doing.

Because when investors are looking at opportunities, they're not just looking at that innovation, they're looking at the people around it and how they will support that business, that innovation, to kind of grow through this next stage, this next phase in its journey.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I think who the investors are also can make a big difference. So we're a partner in Breakthrough Energy, Breakthrough Energy is, a vehicle established a few years ago, bringing together a whole bunch of commercial partners to support investments in early-stage climate tech startups, it wasn't just bringing capital, it was also bringing expertise and knowledge to try and really help those companies get through those kind of early stages of innovation and then connect to a kind of broader community of customers, of other investors and so on. So in that case, it's an organisation which helps to connect as an investor to a much broader ecosystem.

I think that kind of support can be really valuable at an early-stage.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

From what you've both seen in your careers, Rad you mentioned it briefly before, but what is it about that past experience of the founder or of the team that might help you judge or view the opportunity when you are an investor or you are a partner? So Rad I'll start with you.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

My background, you know, I advise on healthcare and life science M&A processes. So advising founders of businesses in those sectors on selling the businesses to private equity as well as private equity that are looking at buying those businesses or selling them themselves. Quite often, the founders of businesses that we're advising have been in industry, so they've experienced firsthand the challenges that those businesses that those markets are facing. They'll then come out of that and develop this innovation. As you can imagine, there's a lot of AI into health, AI into pharma. So how do you use AI to solve those challenges that those clinicians are facing on a day-to-day basis?

If you’ve lived and breathed in that industry for the past 15 years, you're far better able to judge what those challenges are and how you might solve them with an effective solution than you are if you're a piece of technology that's building it from scratch. So actually, it's those real live experiences that those founders have that bring value to these opportunities, because quite often the financial investors, as much as a lot of financial investors these days, have got specialist sector specialist teams, they still won't understand the industry as well as those individuals that have been in it themselves.

So that's what I think they really bring is just that experience kind of firsthand that now they're reacting to.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

And Danny, are you seeing the same thing as a partner to a lot of these founders and organisations?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

Very much so. As an example, we worked with a client who is developing a new process for creating sustainable aviation fuel with deep experience in oil and gas, where some of the technologies came from and in related sectors. And that helped to create a lot of the momentum, you know, having the right people, having the right knowledge. But then also when you go from the innovation to seeking to deploy at scale in the deployment phase, you're trying to de-risk. So the de-risking comes from actually, “this innovation is composed of some existing technologies with something new in the middle of it.”

So the technology risk is mitigated by the experience and knowledge of the people in the company who've done those things before. And so that along with then connecting them to airlines who wanted to buy the fuel, which also HSBC can do because they're also our clients, helps to create the circumstances where the company can then go forward and grow. But that personal experience in the relevant sector is critically important.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

And for both of your roles, a lot of the time when we're talking about support, we're referring to capital. But what other resources do you think are, you know, considered when deciding if it's worth backing something? We've touched on the broader infrastructure point and obviously the personal experience as well. Is there anything you can add to that?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I guess it varies sector by sector, but when you're when you're operating in sectors that are highly regulated, for example, then a knowledge of the legal and regulatory environment that you're operating in or the capacity to bring that in. I think also the flexibility and adaptability to recognise that at different stages of growth, the company needs different qualities, needs to bring different talent in. And so that kind of willingness to reshape the company as it goes through the different stages of growth, which some founders have and some don't, is, is also a kind of critically important element. There's obviously a bit of luck involved as well. So that's also important.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

A common misconception that financial investors is just capital. There's a huge amount else that they can bring to your business. As I said earlier, a lot more of these private equity houses are becoming sector specialists. You know, they'll be investing in far more than just your business, and their portfolio will be sat in that sector. And therefore, there's a lot of knowledge that you can share between the portfolio companies of what are the headwinds, what are the tailwinds in your market and how you're reacting to those headwinds and tailwinds and how you're benefiting from that interaction?

I think they'll also quite often have a black book of executives, of chairmen, of CEOs, CTOs. Your business may not be at that stage yet where you've really invested in your executive suite, but they've got that black book to be able to bring the right people, to be able to support your business, to deliver whatever you're looking for in the next phase of growth.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

Well, I think you're right that this being part of an ecosystem of similar companies or companies working in the same sector and the capacity to kind of learn and adapt and develop based on those experiences, I think is critically important and therefore the capacity sometimes to change direction. Maybe I'm going to focus on a different market because I think a different location, because I think that's where actually the opportunity exists for what I'm doing.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

The thing is as part of that challenge that the private equity house or the VC brings to the business. The entrepreneur’s brought the innovation. They've brought this wonderful idea and kind of developed a business out of it. Sometimes you need that external in perspective to really challenge what you're doing. What's your strategy? How are you going to deliver that strategy? What are the underlying assumptions that are driving that strategy and ensuring that it is a success? So sometimes it's not just the people and the best practice, etc. it's also having the private equity house just come in and kind of give you a little bit of that challenge to really test your thesis.

We host something called the Entrepreneurs Summit. You've got the founders, you've got the investors, and it's kind of speed dating where you're kind of sat in little booths and you kind of rotate around the room. And the founders just get the opportunity to do their elevator pitch, and you do the elevator pitch again and again and again, and you find that the founders quite often come back from those meetings to say, do you know what? I was terrible at the beginning, but I did it so many times that I had perfected my pitch by the end of it.

Because actually, you have that back and forth with the investor, with their challenging you on things, and you think, right, well, I didn't quite get that, didn't articulate that as best as I could of the first time around. But each time you do it, you're kind of getting better at it. Simultaneously, you get the opportunity of having the investor on the other side of the table asking you those questions, and you get to hear a little bit more about what what makes them tick, what are they really thinking about? What are the key risks that they're concerned about? And how do I need to address that in my business?

Because there might be things that you haven't even thought of.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

You've touched on risk there, and we'll get on to that a little bit more in a minute. But for now, you've got an idea. It's caught your attention. And that's where the real work starts, as you need to consider how it will work in practice, not just in theory. How does that belief become commitment? So Danny. I'll start with you.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I guess in our case, we're not making equity investments in these in these companies. Through our innovation banking, we're supporting those customers with banking, basic banking services, then through venture debt, HSBC is now the largest provider of venture debt to climate tech startups globally.

Therefore, I think having that time to get to know companies over months, even years before they reach the point where you're, for example, looking to deploy at a large project scale, I think that's really critical because you build relationships, you get to know the people, you get to know the idea, you get to see them in the kind of environments that you were just describing, I think incredibly important. And then that in turn helps to, I know we're going to come to risk, but helps to de-risk then some of the some of the decisions you're going to have to make later on.

If you come to that with zero knowledge, probably your perception of that risk is going to be very different to if you spent time really getting to know and understand what the company is all about, what the innovation is about, but also the people and the investors around them, you know them well. If you trust them and you've worked with them on a number of things, then that also kind of creates an additional layer of value, of assurance and so forth.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

We talked a little bit about the ecosystem and the people, but pure evidence and data can also help you understand an opportunity’s potential. But with early-stage you might not have as much data for proof. So how do you balance the details of the evidence with also the lack of available data?

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I think every innovation comes with risk. What you've got to be very good at is understanding what are the known risks and what are the unknown risks. And if you want to invest in something that's innovative, you have to be able to be comfortable that there will be some element of risk. If the innovation has no risk, then it won't be innovative. So what you really need to focus on is how are you quantifying the unknown risk. The known risks are fine. If I said there's a 30% chance of this technology being successful, you can quantify that. You can price it. You can think about how you adapt to that.

If I say the technology could be successful, but actually we have no idea whether customers are going to deploy it or not, that's an unknown risk. That's much harder. What you then have to do is you have to go out and you have to do that commercial due diligence. You have to understand that risk better. Once you've understood that risk, you can then encourage investors to be able to back you with that risk. Because if the investors don't understand that risk and you don't understand that risk, that's really difficult.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I think it's also about the way in which the company is developing. So in some of the cases I've worked on, maybe it's an energy, a clean energy technology. Well, they might deploy initially at a very small scale. So that of course, the cost structure is going to be completely different to what happens when you deploy at a larger scale. But you can look at the technology, you can get a sense of does it work or not? You can build data, which then enables the next phase, which might be larger, to be supportable.

Also, I think really getting to know the technology and understanding which parts of that technology in reality are well-established technologies and where is the new innovation also again, helps you to de-risk and and helps. And it's interesting I think for, for sometimes for these companies how you go and pitch to VC investors, which is all about what's exciting and new, and then how you go and win debt finance for your project, which is much more about what's kind of established and known. It's a different way of of presenting yourselves. And so that's also often a learning curve for the founders.

Different kinds of finance require different kinds of data, different kinds of certainty. And so you've got to be comfortable switching from one to the other at an appropriate stage. And that can also be a point at which companies seek to bring in new experience in order to help them deliver what the stage of their growth that they're moving to requires.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I think that's an important point. You know, it's not just the financial viability of a business that investors are looking at. Absolutely. You're going to have to have a business plan, and they're going to be going to scrutinise that business plan and really test the underlying assumptions there. But it's also what's the credibility of the assumptions that you've used in there. You know, you as a founder have to be confident if you've assumed there's going to be X percent growth in the top line of your business, you know, what evidence have you got to be able to back that? You know, what can you point to?

Because again, you're the one who's lived and breathed this business for so long in this sector for so long that you need to be able to articulate very convincingly to your investors. This is why I believe this growth is available. So it's not just about the investor looking at your Excel spreadsheets and testing whether the maths works. It's also having a conversation with you and feeling confident investing in, back to your original question about the people you know, having the confidence investing in you as a person to be able to deliver the potential growth of the business.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

And on the risk point, then you've touched on the need for due diligence and, you know, trying to find data where it's accessible. But simply, how do you decide in that moment which risks are worth taking?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

It's a good question. And I guess our perspectives are different because we're working on different parts of the financing chain. Yeah, with our innovation banking colleagues, they're working with multiple companies, hundreds of companies. And so they're seeing many different trajectories, many different keys to success and failure. That is also helping them to understand where the risks are in the portfolio, and then whether you can extend venture debt or whether you can extend project finance. But it's interesting if you’re I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but if you're a VC investor or a private equity investor, you're investing in a portfolio of companies.

And maybe if you invest in twenty and five are successful, you're doing pretty well. If you're a bank providing project finance, then if you're financing to any project, you need all of those projects to succeed. So, so at different stages of growth, and different kinds of capital, you're looking for, you know, much greater levels of de-risking.

And that's why for these companies going through each, each stage of the, of the, of the journey and understanding the differences at that stage of the journey, going from a brilliant innovation to an early-stage company to first of a kind deployment, then, you know, rolling that out to be the nth of a kind around the world. Those are all different kinds of things.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

Yeah. Completely agree. I think the, you know, the number of entrepreneurs that you speak to, you know, that I've spoken to across my career who are fantastic at kind of explaining why this big idea and this big business is going to be enormous. It's going to be the next best thing. What I would say is don't pitch the idea, pitch the evidence. You know, the idea can always be fantastic. Maybe a huge market opportunity. But where's the evidence that really demonstrates that it's there already, you know? So don't pitch, you know, this is the potential opportunity of the market.

Demonstrate that you've already got customers that are buying  that solution. Don't pitch, you know, my customers are going to love this product. Demonstrate that through having actually some strong traction with your customers and evidence in retention of those customers. Don't pitch, I've got a fantastic team, you know, evidence it through what that team's actually achieved. So it's not just about the idea, as you rightly say, Danny, at early-stages, it can be about the idea and what the potential and the target addressable market will be. You know, there comes a stage in your journey when actually you're looking for a slightly larger equity check, and it has to be more than just the idea. It has to be, and here's where I've proven that it can be a success and it already is a success. It's not something that will be happening. It's happening today and now.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

As we talk about journeys and stages, we all know the phrase right thing, wrong time. How do you know when the right time is to commit or to exit?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I think kind of looking for hard and fast rules in this space is probably not the right thing. Yeah. Again, as a bank, you're kind of looking at different sets of perhaps sets of things to, to an equity investor. HSBC has been around for more than 160 years. It's a bank that's built its success on very long-term relationships with customers. And so, you know, when we're starting these relationships, we're not doing it from the point of view of we're going to get out of this in a couple of years time.

We're doing it on the basis of we believe that throughout this company's journey this company's journey from the early-stage through innovation banking to kind of global deployment to connecting across different markets, that there's something that we can bring to support that, to support that customer. For us, it's more about what are the right services, the right support, the right advice, the right products to deploy at different stages in the company's journey. But the point about timing, I think, is also about what are the broader trends in the in the economy.

So, you know, we're in a phase now in the energy space where we're seeing huge demand for, for energy. We're seeing demand for clean energy growing in particular. Obviously energy security critically important. And that is also pushing more in the direction of clean energy. So if companies can demonstrate that they have a technology that can be deployed at a reasonable cost, that is also meeting these broader agendas, then they're in a good space.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

So we've been talking about what it takes to back an idea. So let's take a look at an organisation helping people turn ambition into action.

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Jenny Haskel (Host)

Strong communities are key to a fairer, more sustainable future. That's why we're proud to support the charity Groundwork through Deloitte’s Social Impact Programme. Their work helps communities and businesses build resilience, tackle hardship and take practical action on climate and nature, creating healthier, greener places to live and work. Search “Groundwork” to see how you can get involved and make an impact.

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Hannah Gowen (Host)

We’ve explored what can stand between potential and commitment. So now let's turn to what people can do to close the gap and how they find the right support. So Rad when a business has attracted interest, but investors aren't fully ready to commit, what can the business do to move that conversation forward at that point?

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I think it's all around demonstrating the value of what you've developed and your proposition. I think it goes back to being able to evidence that there is a demand for what you've developed. I think it's being able to convince the investor that not only is there demand for what you've developed, but actually you're the right innovation to back. Have you created that moat around you where it would be very difficult for anybody else to replicate what you've done, or if you have already got peers who are doing what you're doing, why should they be backing you over investing in anybody else?

Because inevitably with private equity, with VC, they won't just be looking at yourself, they'll be looking at a whole host of other opportunities they might be wanting to deploy capital into. So how do you differentiate yourself from those other opportunities to them? A lot of that work needs to be going in up front before you take yourself to market. And therefore we will spend a lot more time with the businesses up front preparing themselves for a sale before they actually launch, before they start having those conversations with investors, you know, what is my product? What differentiates my product?

Who are the people that are going to be taking this business through the next phase of growth? And will private equity feel like they are backable. And you know, founders quite often are instrumental, especially for businesses at very early stages, a fundamental to the performance of that business. A common question we get from investors is what happens if that founder wasn't there anymore? If the answer is everything stops, that's really difficult. So if you are looking at exiting your business when you've got the investment, you've got to have that succession plan in place.

You've got to have other people that will be able to sit in front of the investors and demonstrate why this is now their vision, and where they're excited about the future potential of the business.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

And so what would you say is more important? Is it the collaboration between the innovator and the team and the supporter, or is it really the capability of the innovation itself?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I mean, I think you probably can't really separate those two so clearly, because the, you know, the capability of the innovation itself is intimately connected to the team who are deploying it. For a company really to succeed, they both need to be really strong, and they need to be able to bring in the relevant expertise to support them at different stages of their growth. Another option is there are also, you know, there are sources of support in the public sector.

I mean, in the UK you have innovation accelerators, you have the British Business Bank, you have the National Wealth Fund, depending on the stage you're at, if you're if you're in emerging markets, there are, there are, you know, development banks and so on that work in this space. So it may be that you can also draw in expertise, support possibly some finance from the kind of areas which again help to bolster the sense of understanding and momentum behind the idea that you that you have but a great team and a bad idea, it's not going to succeed. And nor is a great idea with a bad team.

So you've got to have both parts there. And that's only the start in terms of what you need in order to win support and investment and in due course raise finance for deploying your product or your idea at scale.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

Yeah that collaboration and that balance is fundamental to success. I think you can have an investor that can be overly involved in decision-making and can suffocate the innovation in the business, because they are too afraid of taking those risks. Simultaneously, you can have an entrepreneur that's super excited about what they want to deliver, and won’t listen to any of the ideas and any of the challenges that the investor is kind of bringing.

So kind of getting that dynamic right between the two parties is fundamental, and that's one of the reasons why, when we are advising businesses and we're kind of introducing them to potential investors back to The Entrepreneur Summit or even processes that we run. It's just as important when you're looking at the investor on the other side of the table, for them to get comfortable in your business and the opportunity and the risk that they’re taking where they were willing to put the capital behind you but also for you to look at the person on the other side of the table and say, could I work with you?

You know, what's the dynamic? You know, every investor is very different. And it's not just the house that's investing in you, it's the individual that's sitting across the table. So could I work with that individual? Would I feel comfortable having them sat on my board once a month, you know, analysing everything that I'm doing and having to present to them because entrepreneurs aren't used to that. You're used to having founded your business, and you can rule what happens and how it happens, but then you've got somebody else that's invested and therefore you have to abide by some of their rules.

So just making sure that dynamic really works between the two of you is important before you're accepting an investment because it can kill a business very quickly if you've gone into bed with the wrong party.

Jenny Haskel (Host)

So now moving on to some practical takeaway advice off the back of the discussion we just had. So if a leader or business has an innovation that they believe in, what's the single most important thing to focus on to make it more backable, Danny?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

I would say to prove that the innovation can be deployed at scale and at the cost that is suitable to the market. So in the case of what I'm doing, companies that are innovating with new ideas around clean energy, having an idea that works, but also one where you can you can see how it's going to get pushed down the cost curve to a point where it's reasonably competitive with other sources of energy. I'd say having data that helps to show that journey and that trajectory is, in that sector, absolutely fundamental in order to attract investment and then working, finding partners who are going to be the long-term buyer for the, let's say, in this case, power that you're, that you're producing, that's going to be the critical thing to be able to get finance, to actually build your project at the scale that's required.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

I'd say focus on those ‘two to three’ things that could kill your thesis before you focus on anything else and really prove those out. We're working a lot with, as I said, AI into healthcare, AI into pharma at the moment. And a lot of the founders are very excited because they're now working with five, six of the top ten pharma companies. Well, that's great. You're piloting it with a lot of the big top pharma companies, but can you demonstrate that you're retaining those clients? You know, if you aren't able to renew those contracts, that will kill your business and that will kill any opportunity for anyone to invest in you.

But you need to be able to have that track record and demonstrate that actually, they're coming back to you. They love your product and they're buying again, not just buying once they're buying again and really proving that out first, really focus on those elements of your business because that's where the investors will really challenge you. They'll want to look at where are the holes in this business. And that's what I want to scrutinise first. That's what I want to diligence first.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

And finally, let's bring it back to our big question. It's been really great to hear both of your different perspectives on this. The big question of today's episode is what makes innovation worth backing?

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

Innovation is worth backing, because it's what's going to drive the next phase of development in the areas we work in. So in my space in sustainability and climate tech, you know, the technologies that will get to the next phase of net zero by 2050. Some of them haven't been invented yet, right. Some of them that are going to decarbonise, hard to abate sectors and so on. Or they're at a very early stage.

And so getting those ideas to scale much more quickly than we've seen at the past is absolutely critical if those global goals are going to be met, if the appetite of customers for those things is, is going to be met, and if we're going to generate the kind of economy that we want to see in the coming decades. And so that's going to come from innovators. It's going to come from new ideas, early-stage companies that have the kind of qualities that we've been discussing in this, in this podcast. It's tremendously exciting. It's very impactful and successful companies will do very well out of… and their investors too, out of their success.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

Yeah. No. Absolutely agree. I think it's not necessarily the best inventions that are ones that are going to be invested in. It's those inventions where, or innovations where you can see that path from possibility to proof. All of the things that we've talked about previously, it's demonstrating that you've got the experience, you've got the market problem, you found the solution, you've got the people to be able to deliver that solution. It's not just innovation, it's all that infrastructure, that ecosystem, as you said, that really enables you to demonstrate that this is the right investment for you to be making.

Hannah Gowen (Host)

Lovely. Well, thank you, Danny, thank you Rad for joining us.

Sir Danny Alexander (Guest)

Thank you.

Radhika Patel (Guest)

Thank you for having us.

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Hannah Gowen (Host)

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Green Room, a Deloitte podcast. We release a new episode every other Tuesday with another big question, so don't forget to hit, follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening or watching and make sure your notifications are on. So that way you'll be alerted whenever a new episode drops. This podcast is produced by our very own Pod Squad. Original music by Ali Barrett.

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