#103: What makes us feel confident in what we buy?

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Oli Carpenter (Host)

AI is changing not just what we buy, but how we decide.

We turn to it for inspiration and advice as we crave a personalised touch. But with technology becoming part of the consumer journey faster than ever before and buying becoming increasingly automated, are we about to lose the original personal touch? Or will the human experience become more valuable than ever?

Today, in a special live episode, we answer the big question: What makes us feel confident in what we buy?

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Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

So we all know what we think we need, but actually, how do you stand out? How do you make a tool deliver something that's quite unique to that brand?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Many of the places in which we're seeing these sort of experiences be created through AI, and in my mind, they're actually sort of making them better and in some ways actually feel even more human.

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

Clients want trust. They want empathy. They want to know that there's someone there that's got their backs.

Tom Astill (Guest)

Brands that I've seen it doing really well are being quite deliberate on how they're showing up externally.

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Oli Carpenter (Host)

Hello and welcome to a special live episode of The Green Room by Deloitte. I'm Oli Carpenter and I'm joined by my co-host Steph Dobbs.

Today we're continuing our series looking at the AI future of the UK. And one of the biggest changes we’ll all face is how we buy. Technology is becoming universal, but differentiation isn't. For years technology bought an advantage, but now AI is levelling the playing field. So, if all businesses all have the same capability, why do some experiences resonate with us more than others? And if how we buy and how we make decisions is changing, what is driving our choices on the everyday purchases and once in a lifetime spends? Today we're answering the big question: What makes us feel confident in what we buy?

Steph Dobbs (Host)

And today we are joined by Julia Lo Bue-Said, who’s CEO of Advantage Travel Partnership, and Tom Astill, who's director in Deloitte Digital. Welcome both.

Both guests

Thank you.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Julia, let's start with you then. So current landscape - of course, Advantage Travel Partnership works with independent travel businesses across the UK - what are they actually seeing in how consumers feel different about what they're buying now, perhaps compared to a few years ago?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think the big influence has also been the geopolitical environment we're in. I think when you go through crisis, actually what consumers want is very, very different. And we've seen that through our network. Actually, I mean, there hasn't really been a big enough gap between Covid and what we see now. So, what we see resonate with consumers and what comes through is that they're looking for empathy, they're looking for trust.

So whether you're a member that's online or digital, or in person, or a bricks and mortar agency - clients want trust, they want empathy, they want to know that there's someone there that's got their backs. When things all go wrong and when they're reading the media headlines, there is someone that actually knows what they want. It's not just telling them what they want but knows what they want and really understands that.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And Tom, you work with retail and consumer organisations on delivering digital experiences. What are some of the biggest shifts that you're seeing in how customer journeys are being shaped?

Tom Astill (Guest)

So I think the biggest one is that we're seeing, particularly the sort of upper funnel - or what was the upper funnel – around the sort of finding, discovery, “help me decide”. Those are the parts of the journey where we're seeing the bigger shift in terms of consumers moving away from typical Google search or browsing on websites to trying to find out more about what it is they're looking for in the platforms like ChatGPT and Gemini. Technology can provide the capabilities to create those new experiences, but the adoption of those, I think, is driven by businesses wanting to invest, and then consumers adopting. If it was solely driven by technology, this event might be held in the metaverse.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Because we often talk about AI as a tool to enable better personalisation and smoother customer interactions – you might disagree with that, but we will see. But for those important moments then, is AI actually optimising for efficiency over experience? Julia, I've seen lots of interesting commentary from you in the press recently about this piece, what are your reflections on that?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think it's really interesting. I think independent businesses are not naive to the power that a tool like AI can deliver for them. And what they're trying to do is balance, actually, cost pressures that they've got in the business, operational pressures versus the benefit that the technology and AI in particular here can deliver for them.

So I think for a lot of businesses, it's about actually what's the cost of implementation, what's the cost of “how can I improve operationally by investing in a new solution that ultimately can empower the process for me”? I think it's quite interesting because when people think about travel agents or independent business, they have this real old-fashioned bricks and mortar type mentality in their head, and actually I've spoken to a lot of different kind of stakeholders and they all say, “what travel agents actually exist still?” And I'm like, “yes, they do.” They may not typically look like how you expect them to look. A lot of them do and are thriving. But there are lots of different types - have you heard of Expedia? Have you heard of On the Beach? They are travel agents, they just happen to be online. So I think using the technology to really empower the process is really, really important. And it's always that balance between right now how much do I invest? And having the tools and skills, the talent and skills to make the most of adopting that type of investment as well.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Really interesting. Yeah, I mean, although it's all online, there are still people behind it, right?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

Absolutely, and as I say, with travel you're buying something that you can't physically, tangibly touch. You're not walking away with a new Hoover, or a new washing machine, you're having to wait. So that trust - whatever that brand is - the trust that you have in that brand or the person behind it is so important, now more than ever before.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

How is AI actually changing how consumers react, perhaps to a big purchase compared to a small purchase, is it fundamentally different? Where are people focusing at the moment?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Depending on who you are as an organisation and what you sell, I think the idea of where the things you are selling are perhaps smaller purchases, the question tends to be, how can you make that as sort of seamless and as easy as possible for the consumer to complete?

Where it's something that's larger and more considered, it's either about providing them with the information so that they can feel that they are making the right decision. So back to what makes people actually confident in things they buy, for something big it's typically about trust and human validation. Now that human validation may come in the form of data that an LLM has been able to access and service to you, but it's ultimately our confidence that it's going to be the right thing.

For different types of purchases that are more emotive, I think it's about how do you bring the joy and the fun to those things.

So I do think that the answer to that question is really dependent on who you are and what you're selling. But I'd say: bringing the joy to the fun experiences, the considered research for something that's a bit more important, and then make it as easy as possible for things that are perhaps slightly smaller in value, and sort of your time.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Can you tell us some examples of where you've seen that?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Yeah. So if actually, if I think about grocery as an example, where actually we're beginning to see small signs that people are actually more comfortable actually giving some sort of AI tooling a list of things that they want to go and buy. And actually if the memory is there and it knows sort of who you are and where you shop those sorts of things can be done on your behalf for you because, sometimes actually, that's a helpful thing.

To me though, fashion is something that it depends who you speak to. I've been in rooms with organisations and clients where I've confidently stated that actually people would never want to use LLMs to browse fashion things - because it's an enjoyable thing to do - and I've been quite quickly shot down by someone that said “I would typically use that”. But for me - and certainly the people I speak to - actually fashion is typically something that's quite sort of emotive and quite inspirational and kind of hits you when it hits you, so to speak. A holiday would be something that, again, something you might spend a bit more time researching and actually taking the time to do. So it's probably an experience with something different tailored towards that.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And Tom, when you think about the customer journey, do we think that customers are becoming more empowered by AI or is it brands chasing the technology, leading to consumers being a bit more passive and just accepting that that's the way it's going to become?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I think it depends on the application of that as part of the consumer journey and what you're looking to do. But if you think about, again, that sort of early stage when you are looking to find and do something, a lot of it is driven by what the consumer is wanting to do. So this idea that you are prompting the thing to do a thing for you, I think that's quite heavily driven by the consumer.

I think in other channels which are more established, such as social media and others, those are a bit more sort of targeted towards you. And we're seeing AI used to target different and more effectively. But I think particularly with the search and discovery, that I came back to, that is very consumer and customer driven, because actually the action starts with them typically.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Yeah. So on that point, when we're talking about why it's actually getting harder for businesses to stand out, Tom, let's start with you. If everyone has access to artificial intelligence and everyone can improve their efficiency, does actually differentiation become harder? Where are businesses actually falling short? How do they stand out from the crowd?

Tom Astill (Guest)

So I think it can become harder. One of the interesting things would be, if you are selling a product or service, there is a school of thought that says: well actually, suddenly you're competing against others that are selling that same product, that same service, all in the same pane of glass. So if you're typing something into Google or ChatGPT and looking to get recommendations, one of the things that's going to be driven on is what is the price, what's availability, what are the reviews and recommendations? If you are just selling products with nothing else, there isn't much of a USP above that. So one of the things we're talking to our clients about is how can you elevate your USP around service, around physical location, to actually stand out from the crowd?

I think the other side of it then is the more emotive brand loyalty. So particularly for products or organisations with a really strong brand, that's something that becomes even more important to focus on. So that actually that is something that you may actually override the AI with in terms of your preference for a particular brand. So you actually not looking to ask a question. You actually, “I know this particular brand, “I've got some brand affinity and I want to follow through with that.”

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And Julia thinking - your expertise in the travel industry, you were talking just now about that bricks and mortar, typical travel agent approach - people do often want that human touch, don't they? Especially when it comes to travel, in particular, because of the personalisation behind it and also the importance of that reassurance and the convenience that comes with it. But how are you seeing brands combat the ease of AI for customers or utilise it with their customers?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think we've seen a real cross-section of different approaches. I think for a lot of businesses that are investing in AI and are using it to really empower their overall process, they're starting to see the dividends. And I think - back to kind of what Tom said - I think the added element for the travel industry, it's about not - I said before - not just telling the customer what they're prompting, what they think they want. How do you really ensure that you can deliver what you know they need, or what you can encourage them to think about? It's using AI and using the power of AI to help support that process. But I think we're living through a really significant time now where you've got almost democratisation of AI, empowering, giving us all opportunities, to empower businesses and consumers around decision making.

And the travel industry, it's about how do you take that to the next step and really make sure you can lead them into thinking about what they don't know they need. So we all know what we think we need, but actually, how do you stand out? I talked about standing out before, how do you stand out? How do you make a tool deliver something that's quite unique to that brand? So that brand has a real differentiation. And for small businesses and large businesses across our network, it's no different. It's using it to really empower the process. But using that real expertise, true expertise and value to add that differentiation as well.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Yeah, it's not just about plugging in at all, it's about having the expertise to back it up and really build on that, right?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

Absolutely, because otherwise we will never be able to differentiate our products and services. We really won't be able to. And I think we're certainly seeing that across the network where agents are wanting to differentiate themselves and doing it really well, but actually embedding AI in their, not only their operational process, but in their customer processes as well.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Yeah, and actually that brings us on to actually talk about, something we're going to talk about a bit more in the next episode of The Green Room, but this piece around seeing a pattern where businesses are investing in new technology, but they're just layering it on top of an old way of working. That is a bit of a risk that we often see. What are the issues that businesses face? And perhaps, Julia, in your world to begin with, what happens if businesses are not adapting the way they're actually working and they're just sticking the tech on top? What do you see the effect of that potentially being for consumers, customers?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think it's interesting - I mean, Tom and I were talking before about the internet. And you think about, I remember when we first started talking about the internet and it was like this big scary “t’internet” thing, and what is it and how is it really going to change the world? But actually what's happened is we've evolved. That's now the status quo and we are evolving beyond that, and we are learning more and more. So I think for a lot of businesses, we know what we know. How do we ensure that we are constantly understanding how this technology can empower our process? How can how can we embedded it within our framework, if you like, and ensure that it's really adding value to the business?

I think the challenge for a lot of business owners is - small businesses maybe in particular - is the investment is tough. We're in an environment right now where it's really tough to run a business, costs have exponentially increased and therefore the investment in technology to help support your long-term business is really difficult. But our role is to really showcase the importance of investment, the importance of technology, and the importance of actually how you interact with the consumer is not negotiable really nowadays, it really is part of your brand and how your brand evolves.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Definitely. And I suppose, Tom, maybe reflecting on that as well then, thinking about how AI is opening consumers and brands up to new experiences, does that risk removing what actually makes them meaningful though? What do you see in your world?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I don't think so, is my view. And again, we were chatting beforehand and many of the places in which we're seeing these sort of experiences be created through AI are typically on experiences that are already digital. And in my mind, they're actually making them better and, in some ways, actually feel even more human. So, in most cases, we're not sort of seeing an experience that is primarily human and in person being suddenly replaced by something that is now AI. It's actually something that is already digital, having a different type of technology power it and make it available. Long established are the idea of chat bots and service centre bots that do things. The idea is these can now actually just be better with more data, more information, and more human like. Likewise, actually when you're searching or browsing for something online and if you've got a particular mission where you want to find a suitcase, or a restaurant, or a holiday, you can actually do so in a way that does feel more human, that doesn't distract or detach, I should say, from the importance of human involvement at certain points. But the experiences, I think, are layering on top of existing digital experiences which actually, are themselves, not particularly human.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

So much of it comes down to connection, right? Whether it's between human to human or human to bot. But when we talk about firms providing standout experiences for customers - and, Tom, you spoke about the sort of loyalty point earlier on - where AI can replicate part of a service, what creates that loyalty between brand and customers?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I think, again, it sort of depends on what you're buying and the brand you're buying from. But I think, someone mentioned earlier the point of trust, but actually having engaged with the brand and the trust being built from that brand or that service delivering what you wanted and what you expected. So that could be actually that the thing you ordered came on time, that it was what it said to be. The reviews were accurate, the product worked, the restaurant was nice, the holiday went as it kind of went as you hoped it would. There's something around sort of building that trust through actually the execution of the task and seeing it play through as you would have expected.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And that must be hugely important in the travel industry as well, right Julia?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

It's significant. I know businesses all build loyalty on their brands, but I think when you're connecting people to… I flew back from Madrid the other day and I won't name them, but I used a chauffeur pickup and they didn't necessarily fill themselves with glory. And actually, yes, it was me, but actually these are people we put in front of clients and actually it doesn't take a lot for a brand to diminish in value because of the service they provide. And it's no different for the travel industry, it's incredibly important. You're only as good as your last holiday that you sold or business meeting that you got one of your business travellers to, so really important. I think also, there is so much noise as well. I think we've got obviously AI has a significant role that it's playing, we're interacting with it day in, day out.

But trust is really important and we have to learn to trust. And I think for a brand putting all their energy and effort into a solution where actually we have loads of examples where actually AI has not unfortunately been as truthful, it was not necessarily giving guidance as it should have done, the right guidance to clients. So, some of that ends up being unravelled. So I think trust and loyalty is incredibly important.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Simply, how does someone like a travel agent, Julia, combat the ease of asking AI to plan a holiday?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I go back to my “t’internet”. You know, I think when that first came out, we all thought of the death of retail, you know? I mean, yes, I know the high street’s a challenge, but probably for different reasons which are not this subject here. I think it's just another element that we need to go through, it's just something else that we need to battle. I think we'll see it evolve. Yes, customers are using the internet right now, but actually, we've got more and more travel agents are operating than we've had for a number of years now. Because actually, as an island nation, people want to travel for business or leisure. So there’s great opportunity in that as well.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And are you finding, in your industry, is there a degree of perhaps on the shop floor, a bit of hesitancy in adoption? Because perhaps the education point is not there, people needing to get really comfortable with using those tools and you will have a customer come in and say, “well, I found it much cheaper online using an AI tool.” Is there a degree of that?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

Yeah. But that's something that all retailers battle, I think. I've sat in agents where you've got customers that literally walk in, they take their phone out and they say, “oh, I found this online, can you beat it?” I mean, that's just the retail experience that everyone is doing, whatever they're buying now. Back to the point I made, actually it's how do you differentiate?

Unfortunately with crisis, what it does do is it just brings to the forefront the issues that you can find yourself in. Back to your marketing, your communication, how do you wrap that all into a really concise message? You've got the best technology as a brand for your consumer, but actually when something goes wrong, “I'm here. This is my value proposition”, making sure that really cuts through as well. All these things are your markers in brand strategy are equally as important now than they ever were before.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Do you see the industry working together in different ways to overcome this? How are you seeing - I'd be interested Tom in your views on this as well - but how are you seeing industries come together to tackle this stuff? Is it sharing technology? Is it sharing learnings? Or is it separating everybody a bit more?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Particularly with the idea of agentic commerce or people using those tools to find and buy things online, a lot of the technology vendors behind the scenes have signed up to various sort of protocols, which is effectively them saying we would agree to communicate in a particular way in terms of the technology behind the scenes. The idea being that the adoption of that technology across businesses for consumers just becomes easier. So rather than an organisation having to integrate 15 different times between their payment provider, their search provider, their content provider, those businesses have all sort of said we were going to use a consistent protocol, a way of integrating or passing data that just makes that a whole lot easier.

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

And we can all learn from different industries, I think that's a really important point. You know, what happens in one - I suppose the consumer journey kind of moves, doesn’t it? It starts off somewhere and then it ends up somewhere else, and we have to… we're not always - I like to think we're leaders - but we're not always leading. So actually we're having to follow. We'll get there, let someone else invest and then we'll kind of pick it up. So I think, it's learning best practice, showcasing examples, I think they're all so important. And for small businesses, incredibly important for them to navigate how they get through the next few years.

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Steph Dobbs (Host)

Be good to talk about what's going to shape the future of buying - and Julia coming back to you and that sort of piece around best practice, etc. - what can businesses learn from brands who are getting it right then? As you say, there's unfortunately lots of examples where it's maybe not going so well, but thinking about those businesses that are standing out today or embracing the technology in different ways, what are the lessons that others can learn?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think it's, I would say, it's using the technology to build your business on. I mean, it obviously it becomes the framework, but actually not forgetting that kind of human expertise that needs to go embedded within that as well. AI can add huge amounts of value, and the technology obviously is really important, but it's only through expertise, human interaction that actually it really becomes seamless, and it becomes the full end-to-end proposition, which is a lot of what kind of different travel businesses - and in and out of travel – are doing, and I think that becomes so important.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Give me some examples, what have you seen in both of your industries? Give me some of the best things you think you've seen so far?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I guess just in terms of lessons, for me, it still feels like this is really nascent technology, particularly in terms of the way in which consumers are engaging with it to find brands online and buy things. So we're really early on. So, I don't know if I feel confident saying there are definitive lessons. I think there's a few things that are sort of feeling that are becoming quite established.

So one is that, actually the underlying data for brands and retailers around their products - the availability, the price, the delivery - having that data in good shape and available real time to these external technologies is really important. I think the other thing is being clear on the customer and commercial strategy that drives it. So, to the question earlier, not just applying technology for the sake of it, but actually being clear on the customer problem you're trying to solve, the commercial strategy behind that.

And in terms of some of the organisations that are leveraging it well, the kind of combination of Rufus and Alexa into a new sort of shopping assistant, some of the data that they've released suggested that actually conversion on those sessions has been quite significantly higher, versus the sort of non-Rufus sessions. But equally, there was a lot of furore last year around this whole idea of Instant Checkout, and everyone was going to visit websites again. Websites are going to die. Brands have been spending millions of pounds over five, ten years to make their own channels really slick and make those experiences work, so it's perhaps not surprising that it's quite hard to replicate that in an external channel. So I think we're still quite early on.

The brands that I've seen it doing really well are being quite deliberate on how they're showing up externally and are using tools to measure them. So we're doing some work with clients around how you can measure your presence online, and are experimenting with how they can create new experiences in their own channels to help customers achieve their missions, rather than just sort of into a search bar on a long list of products, which is a personal bugbear of mine.

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think in our industry - and I won’t necessarily name the brands – but some great brands that are building a digital proposition. But actually there is a real human empathetic communication channel that sits around that, and also the ability to be able to interact in lots of different… consumers don't, we're not just siloed and we're not just wanting to interact in a one-dimensional manner now. You want to interact through live chat, you want to interact maybe on the phone, you want to maybe go into store. There are lots of different ways that we want to interact. So there are lots of brands that are really delivering that now, which is becoming more important.

And what I've certainly seen over - I mean, I've been at Advantage a long time - but what I've seen over the years is actually, every almost industrial revolution we are going through, that human interaction becomes really important because we just want to speak to somebody about it.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Do you think that, in this world then, the value of human expertise is going to stand out? Julia, you sort of alluded to this earlier, but is that going to be more valuable in future? I.e. you may have AI powering all these different types of businesses in different ways but, if anything, it makes the human stand out more then, does it? Do you agree with that?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

Yeah, I think it's that complementary factor. Understanding what you need your AI technology for and what its role is, but actually how do you get the best out of out of humans. So I've seen many examples where businesses have spent huge amounts of time investing in AI, and they're not doing it because they want to reduce headcount, they're doing it because they want to empower their people and add more creativity into those roles. So, they're great examples in the travel industry where we've seen that come through. And I think to that point, I think more and more it's not thinking about actually, “how do I invest in technology, AI so that I can reduce my cost?” No, it's about actually - as a consequence that may happen - but improving operational infrastructure through some of these solutions will empower my people. It means that they can really focus on that commercial, creative value that the business needs to be delivering.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Yeah. And Tom, any reflections?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I think I’d echo that. I say it's still very early on in terms of the overall adoption of this, but I think the organisations that are clear on what they want to try out of it, and the underlying foundations that they're going to require to do that, are the ones that are likely to come out on top.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

What do you think we will define brands, and ways of buying, that people will choose in the future? And I suppose, how should companies measure that as they track success? What are some of the metrics that they should be looking at, Tom?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I'm not sure the metrics would necessarily change. I mean, a lot of this is obviously dependent on, as an organisation, what your products are and who you're selling to. I think the visibility of your brand through the channels that are important. So, the mantra of being where your customer is, I think still is very important.

There is one version of this where actually the AI is potentially a new channel through which you need to show up, being clear on how you show up and measuring that is important. I think the other metrics that underlie these businesses around conversion and traffic, many of those are still the case. I think the other one to consider is less of a customer metric, but is the kind of the economics of using this technology and token consumption. I think what that looks at scale, not just in terms of the front office, but throughout the entire organisation, that still remains a little bit unclear. So that's something to keep an eye on in terms of how people and customers are using this technology.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

And surely the size of the business as well matters here, doesn't it? Because it's a lot easier for a big, large brand to invest in some of this AI, isn't it? And these sorts of technologies that are coming down the platform. Is that unfair on the smaller businesses? Is it harder to stand out?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think it's always unfair on small businesses, but the added advantage they’ve got is they’re agile. You know, they're very agile. They can move quickly overnight, whereas large businesses will take a long, long time to do that. And that's the beauty of the SME sector in - whether it's travel or any other industry - in the UK, we are a formidable sector to be able to pivot quite quick.

But the big issue we've also got is just the skill and education. I think that's really important because like everything, it can sound a bit scary. But when we when we talk to everyone says, well, actually, you know that you're holding your phone, you know that the amount of AI tools that are in your phone, the solutions that are being used, you're using it day in, day out. When you try and break it down so people understand it and almost focus on the endgame rather than the technical tools of how you use it. So I think for a lot of SMEs, it is about ensuring that they are not scared, that they are bringing talent in that can help that journey as well, I think that's incredibly important.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Yeah, there's so much technology that you don't even realise you're using half the time, it’s not until you stop and suddenly realise.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

When we look at the market holistically, do we think it's easier for a start-up to join the join the AI race, or are more established mature companies going to have a step up in this? What's your opinion from what you've seen across clients?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Much easier for start-ups. I mean, the biggest challenge that we're sort of facing is actually being able to, I guess, firstly, expose some of the data that you need, in a way that is meaningful. It's just harder if you've got legacy technology. That is just a difficult thing to do, because those technology stacks are harder to change, hard to expose.

Also the number of people that you have to influence in terms of the way in which they think, the way which they work makes those things a lot harder. So typically what we're seeing with clients that we typically work with that are maybe not start-ups is are they able to carve out parts of their technology or parts of their team to start experimenting and sort of trying to prove their value and learn things, rather than trying to transform all at once, because it is undoubtedly harder for those large companies to transform at that pace.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

I'm sure there's a lot of lessons that can be learned, right, Julia? In your world, surely because you're seeing both ends of the spectrum, aren't you? In terms of the different size they can learn from one another, are there forums are bringing people together for this to be discussed? Or is it a case of trial and error?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

It's a bit of everything, but actually the industry is really good at working together. So we do work cross-sector to learn, understand, as I say, there is a lot of investment that happens in in different businesses where most travel, smaller travel businesses, they use legacy technology and they buy off the shelf. They don't invest on proprietary technology. So for our sector, that makes it a little bit easier. But the legacy technology element is a really important point. That's a real pain point for a lot of businesses.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And from your perspective, Tom, what does an effective AI enabled customer experience look like in practice? Are there things we've learned from things like shifts in e-commerce that people are bringing to implementing AI within their business?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Again, I think it does depend on the particular sort of custom mission. So in what you're buying, there are some customer journeys - and travel is a good example - where actually there's one aspect of travel where it's sort of a leisure version, where actually you may want to spend a lot of time thinking about where you're going, doing lots of research and having an experience that allows you to access and have information surface to you in a way that you can take time over to think about, is quite helpful.

There's another side of it around business travel, where typically you don't really want to spend time figuring out what your train is, your hotel. You know you need to be somewhere, so you want to get it booked. The reason I mentioned that is that there's different applications of the technology. So there's this idea of a whole agentic future where agents are going to do everything for us.

I think my personal view is that, for some use cases, that be quite effective, actually having an agent to find and book my travel when I'm busy and got other things to do for work would be great. I'm not sure I necessarily want an agent to go and find and book my holiday for me with my family because if it's not got five swimming pools and ice cream, my son is going to be pretty unhappy. So I'd want to I'd want to check that.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Five swimming pools?

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Is it a challenge - Tom, from your experience - is it a challenge potentially that's bigger than the travel industry, when you think about things like dynamic pricing, you'll go on one day, look at a flight, the next day it's a completely different price. If you're using AI to rely on that information, that's a huge challenge, right?

Tom Astill (Guest)

Absolutely. And that's sort of a really good summary of accuracy of price, the accuracy of stock. I mentioned before that retailers and consumer goods companies have been investing millions over years to make sure that when you see the stock level, when you see the price, when you see delivery, it's accurate so that, you buy it, you get it at the price. If you go and try that through a third party and it's out of date, that's a really frustrating experience and you'll quite quickly go away from that. So that availability of data that I mentioned before, in a way that can make that experience accurate, is really important, but hard to do.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

As we start to draw towards a close and start thinking about the practical advice side of things from a business perspective. So, Julia, let's start with you. What are some of the key choices that leaders actually need to make when it comes to staying visible in the market and providing confidence to consumers?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

I think we can't ignore what's coming down the road. I think certainly being inquisitive about the future and actually what solutions need to be adopted so that you can stay front of mind. I think we are - I talked about noise before - but we're in a really crowded marketplace. I think travel’s one, other brands are something else, where the ability to find brands, I think it's becoming really, really difficult. So actually, how do you really showcase what your brand is about? What your brand stands for is going to be increasingly important, using kind of loyalty and people to really help drive that forward, I think will become increasingly important.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Definitely. And Tom, where do businesses really start when it comes to actually transforming, particularly from that customer service sort of point of view? Where do you start with AI?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I think it again starts with the customer and the commercial strategy. So in the same way that apps and the web and social have been new channels that have emerged, in my mind this is not really much different. It’s start with the customer, think about what they are looking to achieve, think about how this can affect them, think about the commercials behind it, and then use that to guide your investments from there.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

And with the discussions you're having with various leaders across the industry, what's the what's that North Star vision? Where are we going to be in five, ten years’ time? If you look at a typical consumer journey in the travel industry.

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

If I knew the answer to that! We're going to keep evolving, aren't we? We are going to keep evolving. I think we have to make the experience really seamless. The traveller experience won't be seamless, because we're in a smaller world now, our world is much smaller, our borders are tighter. So actually how we how we travel is going to continue being a bit chaotic. I think what we can do as a travel industry, is to take some of that pain beforehand. What can we control? We can control that seamless, trustworthy, expert brand led narrative for a lot of consumers and business travellers, make that part of the journey really easy, really seamless. That's the bit we can control. So I think, focus on what the consumer wants, make it's painless as possible, will become more important.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Well, it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. AI certainly leads the day, doesn't it? But lots to think about and thank you both for some really fascinating insights. But it wouldn't be a true Green Room podcast without coming back to our big question. So, Julia, I'll turn to you first: What makes us feel confident in what we buy?

Julia Lo Bue-Said (Guest)

What makes us feel confident? I think it's a complementary makeup of great technology, great brands, powered by great people.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Fantastic. And Tom?

Tom Astill (Guest)

I think I'd say human validation, either through sort of first-hand experience or the reviews and trust that you've got from someone else that's been through it before. Now, whether that's surfaced through direct human conversation or through an experience that's AI enabled, TBC. But I think it ultimately is down to human validation.

Oli Carpenter (Host)

Fantastic. Well, Julia, Tom, thank you so much for joining us for this very special live episode of The Green Room.

Both guests

Thank you. Thank you.

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Oli Carpenter (Host)

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Green Room by Deloitte.

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