#100: What will be the last job on earth?

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Annie Wong (Host)

Seven years ago, we launched the very first episode of The Green Room. A lot has changed since our first big question - some of you hadn't yet discovered podcasts, or air fryers! And artificial intelligence was, for many of us, something we only saw on the big screen. But now it's transformed our lives in ways we couldn't have predicted.

So, to celebrate our 100th episode, we return to the question that started it all: What will be the last job on earth?

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Ben Legg (Guest)

It's not just AI. The reality is that the pace of change is faster than ever before and I'm not sure if it will ever slow down.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

We need people who really want to learn constantly, evolve constantly, challenge constantly.

Ben Legg (Guest)

This is a journey that may never end. So, you know, we just need to keep saying, ‘okay, we're doing well on these skills, what are the next set of skills and how do we build those?’

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

The people have adopted and the organisations are then catching up to work out how do we actually leverage this?

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Annie Wong (Host)

Hello and welcome to The Green Room by Deloitte. I'm Annie Wong and I'm joined by my co-host Steph Dobbs.

Today is a very special day because it's our 100th episode of The Green Room. Back in 2019, our very first episode asked: ‘What will be the last job on earth?’

A lot has changed since then, but that big question matters more than ever. Seven years on and AI has transformed our lives in ways we could not have predicted. We've experimented with it, worked with it, and invested in it. But are we any closer to truly understanding how it will impact the future of work?

And so, to kick start our new series, where we'll focus on the many angles of the AI opportunity facing us right now, we're revisiting the big question that started it all: What will be the last job on earth?

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Today we're joined by Ben Legg, he's CEO and co-founder of The Portfolio Collective. Welcome, Ben.

Ben Legg (Guest)

Thank you.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

And a returning guest to the podcast, who was there on that very first episode, Anne-Marie Malley, who is vice chair at Deloitte UK. Welcome back Anne-Marie.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

Thank you. It's been a while.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

It has indeed. So, let's start there. Let's reflect on what really big significant changes have we seen in the past seven years? So, since that first episode, I mean, AI it goes without saying. I think you call it artificial intelligence throughout the first episode, just AI now. And tech, there's loads that’s happened even from a geopolitical perspective, cultural perspective. What are some of the biggest? Anne-Marie, let’s start with you.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

Okay, so, I think it's incredible that was 2019 and the amount of change is just I think unparalleled and what's happened over the last seven years. And I listened to that episode and it just, the language that we use, the language that I use just feels so old. We talk about artificial intelligence, we talk about robotics, but there are a few things I think we got right in that first episode.

The first one was we talked about the need for, the ongoing need for empathy as a human critical skill, and I think that remains. So, even seven years on, with the incredible developments, I think that remains. We also talked about the need for ethics, that the whole ethics challenges around the technology would explode and that absolutely has happened.

I think we got a few things wrong. So, I think number one, we totally underestimated the pace of change. The acceleration that would happen in terms of the technology development. We totally underestimated the pace of adoption. I mean, people have embraced this in a way that we have never seen before. It's just quite incredible. And I think we also said we didn't think it would impact design and the creative industries. And, wow, it has. It really has.

So, I think in summary, the things I think we've seen in the last seven years from an AI perspective, are just the speed of development of the technology. And the fact that the technology now does things that we never even imagined that it could. So there is reasoning now happening within that technology. We didn't, we couldn't have imagined that back then. That pace of adoption, I mean, when GPT-3 came out, I think within two months that was 2020, within two months there were 100 million users. We've never seen that speed of adoption. And I think when we talk about, and Ben and I will talk about work, and the future of work, one of the big challenges usually is user adoption. Here we've kind of got the opposite. The people have adopted and the organisations are then catching up to then work out, how do we actually leverage this?

And then I think the application of it. So, it's everything, everywhere. And how do we manage it, how do we govern it, how do we help it? So lots has happened I think, which is all just very exciting and I think we now just need to work out, how do we make this work?

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Just a bit of change then!

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah. I think the other thing is that you guys had the best information at the time, and you got maybe half right, half wrong, and I think even now you hear a lot of people saying, you know, ‘this is where the world's heading’ with absolute certainty. No one knows. That's the reality. Yeah, we can try to be better informed and we'll have opinions and some of them will be right. But we also just need to keep our finger on the pulse because it will keep changing.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Definitely. And maybe on that Ben then, so what are some of the key developments that we've seen over the last couple of years that have actually affected our jobs?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah. One of the first ones is, and Anne-Marie said it, is everyone is learning AI at home, not everyone, but an awful lot of people and then just using it for personal productivity. So even when companies say don't use it or are vague about what you can and can't do, people are using AI to, you know, draft emails, to respond, to tidy data to make images.

There's a whole load of just spontaneous learning and experimentation adoption, which is cool. And clearly, you've got this arms race between ChatGPT and Gemini and Claude and others and, actually linked to that, I think one of the things that we see a lot is things haven't settled down at all in terms of the winners and losers in the tech stack.

So… and I think this is also harder for companies than individuals, most individuals I know are constantly adapting their personal tech stack. I review mine formally every three months. You know, what's the best tool for which job? Can companies change their tech stack every three months? Probably not. But if they don't, will they get behind? You know, you get into bed with the wrong tech company and they fall behind, you know, potentially, you know, you kill the business. So I think the pace of the tech stack adoption is kind of like, everyone needs to be very thoughtful about what tech they're using for what tasks in life.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Definitely. Now, Anne-Marie, there you sort of noted the fact, you know, how quickly people are moving with this technology as well, and the fact that businesses in some ways are the ones struggling to keep up with what's happening. How are businesses having to adapt really to that when it comes to hiring, when it comes to talent? How are they actually adapting?

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think the more leading organisations are absolutely starting to embrace it, and they're embracing it in a way of making sure that everybody's educated in how to use it. Enabling the workforce to use it rather than not allowing them to use. So, I think, there is a lot of enablement going on. And I think that's where the winners will come. It’s where organisations encourage their people to be innovative, to work out how they're going to drive productivity in their roles, in their teams, in the overall organisation.

And I think that's where we'll start to see speed of adoption, organisationally, but also driving productivity. And we might come on to this, but I don't see it's going to be a ‘displace and replace’. I think it's going to be an enhancement. I can’t think of a job that exists today that will not be enhanced by AI.

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah. Agreed.

Annie Wong (Host)

It's interesting isn't it, because I think if we look back at that first episode, seven years ago, the narrative was very much around the robots are taking our job and it’s all very flippant. But I think the narrative has changed quite a lot, and it would be really interesting to unpick what your perspective is on why and how that narrative has changed, and what’s driven those changes.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think what has changed is that there is a building desire, by users, to use the technology firstly. I think there is a drive to productivity in every organisation driven by geopolitical situations. I think there is a desire for people to really understand ‘what is the power of this technology?’ and how I'm using it personally, as Ben has said, and I drive it personally, but organisationally, I want to use it too, because I don't want to be doing the things that I did before. And I think what we're seeing is, we're also seeing a proliferation of roles that didn't exist before. So we’ve got AI trainers, we’ve got AI ethics officers, we've got AI orchestrators, really looking at what is that relationship between the people and the agents, as we deliver processes. And also thinking about where can we best drive that real innovation. So, I think we're just seeing the world of work changing very, very significantly.

Annie Wong (Host)

And you mentioned earlier, the point around creative arts and how that was quite an unexpected change. Have you, have either of you, seen any other unexpected changes that you maybe also wouldn’t have predicted seven years ago?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Crikey. And there's so much change, I'm trying to think what was unexpected. But yeah, I think, you know, you can see with creative clearly, especially GenAI, it writes copy, it makes images, makes video. Those are all creative things; it makes music these days too.

If you think about some other stuff, it's like, we're seeing AI in things like defence, you know. Now, obviously you might have anticipated it for like GCHQ, you know, the way that AI can control drones and drone defences, and you've got basically autonomous machines fighting each other, defending from each other, gathering information, spoiling it. And it's kind of crazy, the pace. But it's getting into every walk of life and almost like the more competitive an industry is, the faster AI adoption is, because it has to be.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

Can anyone argue for the humans though on the creatives? Because we love, we love a back story, right? We love to know the story of Picasso, right? And that that art was born of that very tortured individual, similarly with poetry. So, I do think - to an extent - it will, but we're still going to love that human creativity, and human design, and human art, and human poetry, I think. I hope, I think I hope.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

I think we all hope that. Too many of those cat AI videos – nobody needs too many more of those, do they?

Let's maybe think then about how we actually consider our jobs and career paths now, as well. And perhaps what we actually expect from our careers. How AI is actually changing that. So Ben, you of course work with The Portfolio Collective which directly addresses that point around building portfolio careers. It also supports people in adapting and more flexible work models more generally. So, what are you seeing, I suppose in terms of how people are starting to view their long-term careers?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah absolutely. So, let's start with the big tectonic plates because it's not just AI. The reality is that the pace of change is faster than ever before, and I'm not sure if it will ever slow down. So clearly AI is changing things all the time. But geopolitics is now changing. Supply chain and security is changing. Immigration laws are changing. That whole assumption, ‘the world will become ever more integrated’ is, you know, now just an assumption. It's not necessarily a path we're on. And so, what that means is if we start with companies, companies need to be more adaptable than ever before. You know, the days of planning your org chart for 12 months are gone. You know, you can plan them for maybe for three months if you're lucky, and one day you might have to plan them every day or every week. Because every week, every month, AI gets better and then you have to reconfigure the work and what gets done by the humans, what gets done by the AI, which means you're constantly evolving.

There’s this concept of the liquid organisation whereby there's really no fixed org structure or a very small, fixed org structure with an awful lot of fluidity, just in terms of every week, what jobs we need to get done, which humans do we need? Which AI do we need? And you spin up teams, shut down teams, etc. That is the future of work. That's how companies are going to have to operate. I think also a lot of big companies will have to break up because they just won't be able to move fast enough to keep up with the pace of change. In that world, you then say, okay, as an individual, how do I manage a career in that world? There's some obvious stuff like, you know, planning your career for decades is over. You know, if it was ever a thing, maybe it was 50 years ago.

Graduate training schemes are hard, but there's a whole load more, which is, if you really think about the future of work, almost anything that can be taught can be automated. So you basically need to be able to teach yourself stuff, and develop some really unique intellectual property, because anything that's everyone else's intellectual property will probably be automated. So the future of work is all about reimagining how things can happen. You know, designing new things, building new things, fixing old things, reconfiguring things, storytelling, empathising.

But there's a whole load of stuff, but there's very little routine stuff you can learn and think, ‘I've got a career there.’ And so first of all, there's the skills you need to learn at school, at university and throughout life. But then you also need to say, well, realistically, companies will probably only want me for a project, not forever. So, what does that mean? It means you need to say, okay, well, how do I build a pipeline of projects?

And effectively, you become a one-person company. And you say, right, I need a brand, a personal brand. I need skills that are always cutting edge because everything's being, a lot of things are being made obsolete all the time. I need a network and a way of generating opportunities. And effectively, just think of yourself as a one-person consulting firm or a solopreneur. You know, forever.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Wow. I mean, that's quite a thing isn’t it? Anne-Marie, obviously Deloitte employs a very large number of people, and you also research human capital trends, you're a human capital partner by background, so you can perhaps explain what we mean by that as well in this context. But what trends are you seeing when it comes to hiring talent acquisition and retention strategies?

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

Yeah. So, I think, from a talent hiring acquisition perspective, we are more looking for people who have got a, I'm going to call it a spike, or a natural interest in critical thinking. As Ben has described, we need people who really want to learn constantly, evolve constantly, challenge constantly. So I think that we're looking for people who have that as a, as a trait. And just that curiosity. Curiosity, great comms skills - communication skills - high on EQ, because that's the differentiator when we come to the technology, I think, the human differentiator. So I think we are, we're looking for those skills.

From a retention perspective, we need to make sure that people have got the best tools. That we are leading in this world of AI, that we are helping our clients lead their thinking, their outcomes, the value that it delivers. Because if we're not doing that, the individuals will just go elsewhere and they will get that. They want that kind of real leading-edge thinking. And we're trying to provide everyone tools. So we have PairD, which is our Deloitte AI tool, that people can use that can, you know, do great research, that can do great report writing and taking away a lot of the more mundane skills that we would of expected of our professionals before.

So I think the role’s changing significantly, I think what we're looking for from people is changing significantly. I think what people are looking for from work is changing much more significantly.

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah.

Annie Wong (Host)

A topic that comes up a lot, is around AI investment, but I think sometimes what isn't necessarily covered in as much detail is whether or not that translates to investment in future jobs too, and that balance between implementing AI and then also investing in your workforce. And, Anne-Marie you mentioned, you know, new jobs that exist now that that never did before, AI ethicists, etc. Do you think we will see more and more new jobs as a result of AI, or do you think it will primarily be transforming existing jobs and requiring new skills, etc., for people to work alongside AI?

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think we'll see both. So I don't think, I think as I said earlier, I don't think there is a job that exists right now, that will not be impacted, right? From plumbing to hairdressing to management consultancy, you name it. Everything is going to be impacted. I do think there will also be… the last job on earth probably doesn't exist right now, but it might exist in two years. So I do think there is going to be a proliferation of new roles, of different ways to be.

I love Ben's kind of thoughts on either a project or that portfolio career. Because basically what you do then, is you have individuals who are roaming around organisations understanding how different organisations work, bring in good practice, knowledge sharing all through an individual. And these are systems that we had to create before. So that's actually becoming an evolution of how people work. So I think it is both, I think most jobs will be impacted by AI absolutely, I think that will be an absolute proliferation of new roles that don't exist right now.

Annie Wong (Host)

Would you agree, Ben?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yes I would, I think, you know, brand new job descriptions might be some really interesting niche ones. AI and ethics lawyer whatever would be a new-ish thing, but arguably that's just a lawyer who had a different specialty and retrained. So there will be some new job titles, but I think in general it's going to be evolution, it might be quite fast evolution, but, you know, at the end of the day, if you think about the jobs people need to get done, plumbers need to put plumbing in houses, electricians need to put, hairdressers need to cut hair, accountants need to manage finances.

Those activities still need to happen, and they'll be done by a combination of humans and AI. So in general, roles will evolve. You know, maybe some roles will be 90% displaced by AI, others will be 5%, you know, but, it's just going to be a constant and very fast evolution.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

I remember you talking about being a florist, Anne-Marie, in that very first episode, didn't you? As being a, it’s a good one, probably, again, there's an AI angle to that as well, isn't it?

Ben Legg (Guest)
There's one for everyone.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I was at an event in the Langham Hotel a couple of weeks ago. It was a Salesforce event, for International Women’s Day, and they had the most beautiful, floral display in this gorgeous room. And I did think to myself, ‘can an AI do that? Probably.’ And I'm thinking, well what about this… because you need to think about the colours, the smells, the shapes, everything. Of course.

Ben Legg (Guest)

I made that mistake very publicly the other day. I was trying to think of an example of a job that might not need AI. I said, ‘if you're a great chef, you don't need AI’. And someone in the audience said, ‘I'm a chef, and I use it for menu design’, for this, that and the other… Okay, I can't think of an example then.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

It’s actually great for chefs, some of the menu ideas are brilliant.

So back to that point then, Anne-Marie you were making about sort of skills and I suppose what skills are actually important. And you talked about some of the important skills from a Deloitte perspective, I guess given the pace of AI is so advanced, are there skills gaps perhaps emerging, and how can businesses actually support that?  Don’t know who wants to go with one first, Ben?

Ben Legg (Guest)

First of all, if there is a skills gap at the moment and for many cases it's just the inability to use AI. And it's maybe stating the obvious. But I think a lot of people maybe they use AI at home, they haven't been fully trained by their companies, and they think using AI is writing a basic prompt for ChatGPT. And the reality is, that's very 2024. You know, AI skills required are so much more in terms of working with the AI, collaborating with the AI, building agents, getting the agents to play nicely with each other. You know, you work out which platform to use, how to quality control, how to split work between humans and AI.

There's so much more to learn, and I haven't yet met any workforce, I've met the odd individual who is probably mastering all of those. So although there is probably a whole load of other ones, I think if anyone said I need to pick something for the next quarter or three for my personal learning plan, I say become a power user of AI for the tasks and activities you like to do.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I don't think we are going to lose our jobs to AI. I think we're going to lose our jobs to the people who have best enabled themselves with AI. I also know the prompt thing is like 2024, however I was talking to somebody who works in public health care and what they're saying is that it's brilliant, right, because you can use it. But they would like training in better prompting.

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah, oh no, if you don't have it, you absolutely need it. Yeah

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

So I think there are lots of people who need that training, how do you actually better prompt so you get a more accurate, more easy, response.

Ben Legg (Guest)

I did a, running a workshop for AI with a fintech company, so in theory, everyone should be quite techie there. I had a show of hands, you know, what's your level of AI? And like one of the first questions was, ‘are you building agenetic workflows and getting a decent ROI?’ One hand out of, you know, 40 people in the room. The next one was, ‘are you using AI nut it's unsure what the ROI is?’ Quite a few. The next one is ‘using it at home, not using it at work.’ Quite a few. But there are about 5 people out of 40 who weren't using AI much at all.

So there really is a mix. And that was a really well-educated, you know, bunch of humans. So, I think it's very easy when you're a bit of an AI geek, to assume that everyone's moving at speed. I think the reality is there's a whole lot of society that, you know, waiting to be given permission or to get some early training. And as you know, as you get up and running, you start running faster because you realise that you can get AI to teach you AI. But people need to get over those first hurdles.

Annie Wong (Host)

I find that really interesting, though, because I think there are definitely people who aren't using generative AI or agents, etc. But I feel like outside of that, there's almost no way to avoid it. If you’ve got a smartphone, there’s AI built in there, but it's funny that there's still this perception that you can avoid it, if you were so inclined.

Ben Legg (Guest)

And clearly there's AI under the hood of almost every app you use now. So the reality is, yeah you’re right, everyone with a smartphone is using AI, but I think they feel like ‘I don't really turn to ChatGPT or Gemini or Claude much’, you know? So they're benefiting from AI, but without thinking of themselves as an AI user.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

So leaders are a hugely important part of all this as well, particularly when it comes to influencing your career path and contributing towards that wider piece when it comes to the job market. So Ben, how can leaders support some of the disruption and uncertainty that's going on when it comes to changes like AI and reskilling?

Ben Legg (Guest)

So what I've seen, I work with quite a few, CEOs and companies who are trying to sort of lead this transition. The first thing is leading from the front saying, right, a - I'm going to ask the dumb questions in public, and I'm going to learn in public and I'm going to geek out. I'm going to share the fun things I'm doing, and I'm going to ask questions about the things I'm not doing. So people realise this isn't something you can delegate to the IT department or the product team or whatever. It's for everyone because it's starting with the CEO. And then obviously encouraging their team. So that's number one.

The second is putting in place those programmes, you know, which start with working out, giving all employees permission to play with AI - within guardrails, clearly you need some governance. But then giving people tools and encouraging people to practice. Something I think is really important is making AI fun. I genuinely believe in most companies you need to build a geek culture now where everyone's messing around with AI and sharing and questioning and just kind of in the back of mind saying ‘there's an AI for that.’ You know, almost any task can be enhanced with AI. And then when you get that culture, progress starts happening left, right and centre and even like geeking out on the stuff you do at home.

I've built a story telling agent for my kids, and we brainstorm the story each night, and then we have some play and we get some great images. And, you know, my son is ‘Super Jasper’ and my daughter is ‘Pixie Pippa’. I'm ‘Sensei Daddy’ because I'm the teacher, and mummy’s, ‘Mummy No No’, because we chose the character names!

But basically, you know, geeking out, having fun, etc. but then you also need to bring structure too. So if you just get everyone to become geeks, you get a thousand mini initiatives with no real rubber hitting the road. At least not the big ones. You know, I think you can make everyone 10% more productive just by saying ‘play with AI’. But to really make the bigger changes, you know, to change a big internal process or system, you need good change management. You know, it's actually quite old-fashioned skills. Okay, we need a project charter. We need a project plan. We need a leader. We need resources. We need reviews, you know. And there is some sort of straightforward change management capability to building, etc.. And then the other is just constantly raising the bar. You know, the reality is this is a journey that may never end. So, you know, we just need to keep saying, ‘okay, we're doing well on these skills. What are the next set of skills and how do we build those?’

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

The only thing I would add to that is incentivisation. So actually, as well as encouraging, incentivising people to work out, okay, so this is the world in which you work, so where could you use an agent? How would that fit with you? How would you work with that agent? And actually incentivising that behaviour to actually start to embed it within the organisations.

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Steph Dobbs (Host)

In 2016, Deloitte set our ambitious social impact target to positively impact five million futures by 2030.

And in this part of the podcast, we always take a break from our big question to help share a message from one of our partners. As The Green Room hits our 100th episode, we're not the only ones celebrating a milestone achievement. Thanks to the efforts of our people, charity partners, schools and social enterprises, Deloitte has helped transform five million lives, five years early. That's five million futures supported through volunteering, pro bono, fundraising and social impact investment. Search ‘Deloitte social impact’ to find out more.

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Annie Wong (Host)

So if we turn our attention to the long term future and the constant journey that we are on, and will continue to be on, what would you say we've learned about AI that allows us to make more accurate predictions about the future of work compared to where we were seven years ago?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Well, you've got the seven year view.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think the one thing we've learned in the last seven years is that we can't actually predict this. We couldn’t predict it then, and I don’t think we can now. So, I think as Ben said earlier, we can try to kind of say right, okay, there are some things here that we think might happen. But I think the predictability, I mean, it's moving so fast. And I think the surprise of user recognition, user adoption is, is just accelerating at a pace that we can't quite keep up with. So I think we can’t.

Annie Wong (Host)

And Ben, I think we all know the AI will continue to dominate headlines. How do you think we can best separate the hype or sensationalist claims that come out compared to the more practical sides of AI that’s actually worth knowing?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah. I’ll start with an example actually. It’s about ten years ago, Geoffrey Hinton, who's like, the godfather of AI, said, radiologists, you know, you can stop training them now. We won't need them in ten years time. Because, you know, they can screen cancer images and stuff. Do you know what's happened to the number of radiologists since? It's gone up.

So there's this concept called Jevons paradox - I think he was an economist a long time ago, but anyway - the general idea is when the price of something comes down, demand for it goes up. So when you bring the price down, what do you do? You do more screening, because you can. That means you need less radiologists for the actual screen analysing of images, but more for talking to patients. And I think there's going to be a lot of these paradoxes come along. The number of lawyers right now is going up, not down, even though, you know, a lot of people said, you know, AI will mean less lawyers, especially junior lawyers, because, you know, you don't need all those lawyers going to the library. But what happens is you can now deal with cases more efficiently, so legal firms can take on cheaper cases they would have said no to. You've got companies maybe suing more often because they can, because it's more efficient. There's a whole, there's this sort of, you know, sort of a speed and a volume that's going up.

So I think straight away, it's like the experts don't know. I think anyone that's saying ‘one day we won't need to work, we’ll be eating grapes and playing with our kids’ is wrong. Anyone that says ‘one day we'll all be, you know, on a drip, living a virtual life while the robots run the world’ is wrong. There's going to be a messy middle in which some jobs will be displaced. Many will, almost all, will be enhanced. Some will be created. And the world will look quite different, but we'll all still be muddling through, working it out, trying to work out how do we run society? How do we run companies? How do we run our lives? How do we bring up children? And it's kind of, it's going to be messy, it's going to be interesting. The key thing for everyone is to make sure you never put your head in the sand, you know, keep your head above the parapet and enjoy the ride.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think building on that, there are some strategic considerations that could have a significant impact on this, I think. So one is the cost and resilience of energy. So, energy consumption, going to double by 2030. Given the current geopolitical situation, where is that coming from?  And what is that going to do to drive costs? And I think countries like the UK - we've got a brilliant, natural and built assets - should be moving much more quickly to make sure that we have got clean, abundant, cheap energy to drive the AI requirement that will be. Because if we don’t, it’s going to become a cost play. And then it will start to limit.

Ben Legg (Guest)

And that will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, probably, building that infrastructure.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

Absolutely. So I think we, in the UK, need to move more quickly, I think every country needs to think about how they're going to do that.

The second thing is the cost of compute. I mean, that has gone up between 24 and 25, that went up 36%. So that is a direct cost on to your organisation. How are you going to manage that? And that is moving again in one direction. And then what are governments going to do in terms of the regulation around AI? That’s quite the unknown and that could have a very positive or a very limiting impact on it too. So I do think there are some strategic questions that need to be answered and some very strategic action that needs to be taken at the national and at the global level to make sure that we have the foundations, the energy, the cost of compute, in a position where we can continue to use and exploit AI.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Definitely. And Ben, you sort of touched on this earlier, but there's so many jobs that didn't exist seven years ago. So AI ethicist and, you know, prompt engineers and all these other jobs that continue to evolve. And we're of course always on the cusp now of another set of new roles coming in. Let's leave AI to one side briefly, what other sort of specific career paths and roles are starting to evolve? Or can you not even separate AI from what's happening now to your point earlier?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yeah. I mean, there are some, and I do think, you know, clearly when a lot of people think of, let's say a portfolio profession, you think of someone who’s kind of had a successful life and at some stage branched out and gone independent. But the reality is a lot of people coming out of university now can't get that first graduate trainee job because they are shrinking for a lot of reasons, not just AI. And so a lot of people literally have to become, you know, independent from day one. And so they need to develop skills. So one of the things I think, whether it's a career path or a career skill, those people need to be able to teach themselves new skills So I do think there's a very large element of your, you know, your training plan is on you. You know, your career development is on you. How much you earn is on you. So it's kind of like for everyone in life, it's like, you know, you earn as much as you want to earn. You learn the skills you want to learn. You move at the pace you want to move. As opposed to waiting for a big corporate to make a decision about your life.

Annie Wong (Host)

it feels like such a big change compared to how people would have planned out their careers before. I think about, you know, my parents generation, it’s just wildly different. Do you have any advice for how people can feel more prepared for that challenge and disruption, but then also feel excited by the opportunity this presents?

Ben Legg (Guest)

Yes, so look portfolio careers are wonderful if you get it right, and scary if you get it wrong. And actually they can be scary on the journey to getting it right as well. Probably the top advice is don't wing it. You know, like if you're if you have a portfolio career, your solopreneur, you're effectively a founder. Now you don't necessarily have to do the fundraising. You don't have to hire the team. Those are two things you can skip. But apart from that, you are the CEO of a company of one and getting off the ground with no revenue on day one. So that's hard work.

You really need to put some serious thought into who am I? What am I selling? Who am I selling it to? How will I tell that story? How will I build a pipeline of opportunities? How will I deliver value? How will I get repeat customers? You know, how will I keep learning? How will I leverage AI and humans in the right configuration? And the moment you sort of get into cruise control, there's the risk that you become obsolete. So it's going to be quite hyper competitive. But ultimately if you master that and constantly have a little edge and keep looking around corners, it can be amazing because you can, you know, to a certain extent, work from anywhere, work with anyone, work on any problem, earn as much as you like. It's amazing, but it's not easy. I think the top thing is just don't wing it. You know, if you're going to wing it, I don’t know, try and get a full time job, because you'll fail in a portfolio career.

Annie Wong (Host)

And Anne-Marie, what about changes for businesses? What do you think they can be doing to best prepare a workforce strategy or plan that's going to be fit for the future?

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I mean, I think the biggest thing they can do is equip their people with AI and make sure that they are having some fun with it, that they’re incentivised to use it, that they're asked to drive productivity, that they're asked to work out how do AI and people coexist. Make sure that they have go the right governance in place, because I think that becomes critical to a company's reputation and potential reputational damage. If they don't have, you know if the AI is not accurate, is not unbiased, is not, you know fully checked by humans. The whole human in the loop concept I think is becoming ever increasing across industries. And we need that because we need those checks. So I think it is about just equipping and encouraging and incentivising people to take the tools to take the learning and to, deploy it in their organisation and their teams and their day-to-day work.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

As I suppose, finally then, it's really important I suppose whatever this future job market actually looks like, it's really important it's accessible for all of us. And Anne-Marie you sort of alluded to this earlier around the fact that some changes probably need to be made at a societal level, right, to ensure that everybody's got the right skills for the future. What role can businesses play in supporting this change that's coming down the line? Anne-Marie, let’s start with you.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)
So I think they can, I think they can support the change by ensuring that there is excellent training, there is excellent development available to all. I think there should be, and Deloitte could play this role, but there should be a convening of organisations by governments to ensure that that is available to everybody, and not just the people that are employed by those organisations. We need to raise the AI capability of the entire nation. So the best way to do that is to get organisations to convene, to share, and to make that training available. Everybody needs to become not just literate, but to Ben's point, have the ability to become expert, have the ability to really embrace it and drive that change.

Steph Dobbs (Host)

Ben, any further reflections on that?

Ben Legg (Guest)

I think it is definitely… it's both a, business, it's an individual and it’s a governmental thing. And we didn't touch much on education, which is probably a whole other, you know, podcast. I think it is actually in the pipeline, but it's like, you know, we need to make sure that pretty much everyone's a power user. Because, a - if they're not, there's a risk they're unemployable. But b - if they do, it's a massive force multiplier for everyone. You know, companies will have better talent, individuals have better careers. The government will have more productivity growth and what have you, everyone wins if we can get as much of the population as possible being power users.

Annie Wong (Host)

Thank you both so much, it’s been a fascinating conversation. I feel like we could have spoken for hours and about many of the things that you spoke about. And, in fact, a lot of these topics we’ll be diving into in later episodes of this series.

But for now, it's time to answer the big question: What will be the last job on earth?

Ben Legg (Guest)

So I'm not thinking of one individual and with everyone else being unemployed, I’m thinking of one job type, which is solopreneur. I think that there's a good chance that the vast majority of people will work for themselves, and it'll they'll get things done, you know, between themselves and AI and fractional friends and colleagues to get stuff done, constantly reconfiguring the work and constantly looking for ways to improve society and then turning that into a product or service and making some money.

Annie Wong (Host)

That sounds great.

Ben Legg (Guest)
Yeah.

Anne-Marie Malley (Guest)

I think it will be something in the caring dimension. Maybe, Annie for you, people dealing with expectant mums, expectant parents. People dealing with people at the end of life, there will clearly be AI embedded in it, but I think there will still be a human need for that kind caring. And as I said seven years ago, I do think that there will still be parents, mums and dads. Dealing with the children, even if they might not want it. I think they’ll still be here too.

Annie Wong (Host)

Fantastic, thank you both so much.

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Annie Wong (Host)

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Green Room by Deloitte. We release a new episode every other Tuesday with another big question. So don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening or watching - and make sure your notifications are on, so that way you'll be alerted whenever a new episode drops.

This podcast is produced by our very own Pod Squad. Original music by Ali Barrett.

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