WEBVTT X-TIMESTAMP-MAP=LOCAL:00:00:00.000,MPEGTS:0 00:14.699 --> 00:17.049 Well, hi. Hello everyone and thank you for joining. 00:17.059 --> 00:17.920 Uh I'm Jim Pickett, 00:17.930 --> 00:21.389 the global clients and markets leader for Deloitte's Global Employer 00:21.399 --> 00:24.020 Services Practice or as we call it G E S. 00:24.290 --> 00:28.729 Uh So in G E S, we specialize in the mobility uh of a global workforce. 00:28.739 --> 00:33.330 Uh We help organizations navigate the complexities of employment and taxation. 00:33.529 --> 00:36.110 Uh And I'm certainly delighted to be with you today. 00:36.790 --> 00:38.630 Um So the topic has garnered lots of 00:38.639 --> 00:41.040 interest from all the registrations that we've seen. 00:41.169 --> 00:42.740 Uh And I think that's because the way 00:42.750 --> 00:45.200 we work has completely transformed over the past 00:45.209 --> 00:47.630 three years uh with hybrid and remote work 00:47.639 --> 00:51.060 strategies becoming the norm for most organizations. 00:51.419 --> 00:54.549 Um And this new way of working clearly has several benefits. 00:54.560 --> 00:56.650 Um It provides greater flexibility in 00:56.659 --> 00:59.560 includes and inclusivity for employees who now 00:59.569 --> 01:03.099 have more control than ever over when and where work gets done. 01:03.200 --> 01:04.989 Uh While also offering the opportunity for 01:05.000 --> 01:08.050 employers to rethink things like geographic footprint, 01:08.110 --> 01:09.910 reassess real estate needs, 01:09.919 --> 01:11.660 cast the net wider in the search for 01:11.669 --> 01:15.610 talent and possibly even offers uh sustainability advantages. 01:16.230 --> 01:18.900 Uh In addition, we're seeing return to the office mandates. 01:18.910 --> 01:22.440 We see this a lot in the press uh right now and these are interesting 01:22.449 --> 01:24.839 times as companies start to think through strategies 01:24.849 --> 01:27.300 to balance a culture of colo location, 01:27.309 --> 01:30.529 working, you know, people working together and the benefits of that. 01:30.580 --> 01:34.220 But also melding that with the benefits that they've realized through, 01:34.230 --> 01:36.300 through their employees being able to work remotely. 01:36.730 --> 01:40.160 So how do they keep up with these changes and and what data is 01:40.169 --> 01:42.760 available to help them manage and possibly 01:42.769 --> 01:46.139 solve these tricky and potentially expensive problems, 01:46.150 --> 01:50.199 you know, like office space, obviously, sustainability team, productivity, 01:50.209 --> 01:51.800 talent incentivization 01:51.910 --> 01:53.080 and even retention. 01:53.379 --> 01:57.330 Not to mention the complex tax and legal compliance challenges that create 01:57.339 --> 02:01.370 that can be created by a uh a separate and disparate workforce. 02:01.449 --> 02:02.629 So that to help us, 02:02.639 --> 02:05.809 we've gathered uh our Deloitte team who specialize 02:05.819 --> 02:08.679 in helping master hybrid work and we've lined 02:08.690 --> 02:13.529 up some really tough questions to put their expert status today uh to the test. 02:13.770 --> 02:17.020 So I'd like to express to take a couple of minutes to introduce them. 02:17.050 --> 02:22.479 Uh We have Joel Eisenreich. Uh He's a principal in our tax US G S um practice. 02:22.490 --> 02:24.970 He specializes in global compensation 02:25.089 --> 02:27.199 uh and benefit matters with a unique focus 02:27.210 --> 02:30.240 on the cross border tax and regulatory issues. 02:30.449 --> 02:31.979 We have Steve Hatfield. 02:31.990 --> 02:34.940 Uh He's Deloitte's future of work leader for Deloitte consulting 02:34.949 --> 02:38.039 and is a principal in the workforce transformation offering. 02:38.449 --> 02:39.559 We have Carissa Kilgo. 02:39.759 --> 02:42.020 Uh She's a principal in workforce transformation 02:42.029 --> 02:45.339 in human capital uh leading workplace next, 02:45.350 --> 02:47.559 uh which supports clients in defining and delivering 02:47.570 --> 02:49.619 solutions aligned to the future of work, 02:49.630 --> 02:51.800 workforce and the workplace. 02:51.809 --> 02:55.470 And finally, we have Karen Cunningham as she leads Deloitte's cross industry, 02:55.479 --> 03:00.210 global and us human capital market for sustainability, climate and equity. 03:00.309 --> 03:02.539 Uh She advises clients on the organization 03:02.550 --> 03:05.619 and workforce imperatives to drive meaningful change, 03:05.630 --> 03:07.199 impact and value. 03:07.770 --> 03:11.660 Uh So welcome everyone. Thanks for joining me today on the panel. 03:11.669 --> 03:14.119 Let's start with you first. Uh Steve 03:14.270 --> 03:16.380 um Future of work is an often used 03:16.389 --> 03:19.639 phrase when talking about post pandemic work practices. 03:19.820 --> 03:20.839 And most recently, 03:20.850 --> 03:23.089 we've seen this tied to media coverage around 03:23.100 --> 03:25.070 return these return to the office mandates. 03:25.080 --> 03:28.690 Essentially employers requiring employees spend an amount of 03:28.699 --> 03:31.320 time working from a defined office location. 03:31.690 --> 03:31.860 Now, 03:31.869 --> 03:34.619 this coverage could be interpreted as painting a picture 03:34.630 --> 03:36.830 of everyone being back in the office and remote 03:36.839 --> 03:39.820 work being over while others could argue that that 03:39.830 --> 03:43.119 isn't the case and remote or hybrid continues. 03:43.130 --> 03:45.330 Uh And those approaches continue and are still 03:45.339 --> 03:47.360 very much part of the workforce equation. 03:47.589 --> 03:51.270 What's your, what's your take on this return to workforce debate 03:51.470 --> 03:53.669 and, and maybe share your perspective on where current, 03:53.679 --> 03:56.839 why current or currently organizations are focused. 03:57.529 --> 03:58.580 Yeah. Um 03:59.000 --> 04:00.300 Jim, it's a good question. 04:00.309 --> 04:04.820 It, it, it, the headlines continue to be this sort of back and forth around 04:05.119 --> 04:09.210 the return to office debate. RT O is now actually a thing. 04:09.410 --> 04:10.229 Um And 04:10.449 --> 04:13.059 you know, it's interesting because first, as we think about it. 04:13.070 --> 04:14.789 It's important to recognize that 04:15.020 --> 04:16.100 for many 04:16.309 --> 04:18.570 uh there, there is no such thing as a return to office. 04:18.579 --> 04:22.239 They've long been kind of at their quote unquote workplace somewhere 04:22.250 --> 04:25.140 in the vicinity of 80% of the global workforce is desk. 04:25.880 --> 04:28.350 And so what really gets underneath it a bit is this, 04:28.600 --> 04:31.350 this dimension of well flexibility. 04:31.730 --> 04:35.220 And what started to grab the headlines recently is 04:35.359 --> 04:38.290 the promise of flexibility that was offered by some companies. 04:38.299 --> 04:40.260 They've started in, in 2021 04:40.480 --> 04:44.100 and 2022 they've started to pull back from some of that. 04:44.420 --> 04:48.829 And I think what's getting underneath that is this ongoing 04:49.329 --> 04:51.799 dimension of trying to sort, 04:51.929 --> 04:56.190 how do we make hybrid and hybrid models work? Do they work? 04:56.339 --> 04:59.040 And where we were in the past months is the 04:59.049 --> 05:02.709 majority of the organizations that were exploring these models had landed 05:02.959 --> 05:06.230 in something that felt like a structured hybrid, something where there was a 05:06.510 --> 05:10.690 mandated three or two days a week in the office. And, 05:11.089 --> 05:14.769 and now what started to happen is because of the way in which 05:14.980 --> 05:17.630 the workforce has said, well, that doesn't quite feel right. 05:17.640 --> 05:19.119 And that doesn't quite make sense. 05:19.130 --> 05:22.079 There's an ability for us to continue to do 05:22.089 --> 05:25.739 really productive work virtually and remotely in a way 05:25.859 --> 05:27.440 that serves what I need 05:27.540 --> 05:30.739 as an, as an individual and what I need as a person, a human, 05:31.049 --> 05:33.750 you know, we, we started to see companies put forward, 05:34.089 --> 05:35.529 you know, disciplinary, 05:35.700 --> 05:39.119 um uh calls out, they, they're starting to put forward, 05:39.230 --> 05:40.600 you know, different 05:41.029 --> 05:43.510 disciplinary sort of uh responses to those 05:43.519 --> 05:45.399 that are not being quote unquote compliant, 05:46.540 --> 05:47.579 which is a new step 05:48.179 --> 05:49.769 that, which we haven't yet seen, 05:49.779 --> 05:52.079 I guess in the course of the arc of this conversation, 05:52.950 --> 05:55.769 what's been interesting is this ongoing 05:56.170 --> 05:59.869 argument as this conversation about the recession 06:00.350 --> 06:01.579 has unfolded 06:01.769 --> 06:02.989 that perhaps 06:03.239 --> 06:06.940 that the employees have had the upper hand and that as the recession 06:07.549 --> 06:12.559 um starts to potentially take root, the employers will have the upper hand. 06:12.809 --> 06:15.970 And, and then, you know, that's also sort of a bit of a myth in reality. 06:16.200 --> 06:20.769 So if you actually take a look at the facts underneath that, right? Currently 06:21.010 --> 06:26.420 in the US, we have 10.1 million open jobs and the numbers have consistently been 06:26.709 --> 06:33.750 in the uh 10 or above million for the past 18 months. The unemployment rate is 3.7% 06:34.230 --> 06:37.929 in the OECD across those countries. It's about 4%. 06:38.190 --> 06:39.170 And so 06:39.290 --> 06:44.190 this hot labor market continues to be very, very strong component of the story. 06:44.399 --> 06:48.339 It sort of speaks to a need for us to think about 06:48.450 --> 06:51.600 the skills that we need and the skills mismatch that exists 06:51.760 --> 06:52.970 and therefore 06:53.100 --> 06:56.989 the employees continue to have if you will a bit of an upper hand there. 06:57.420 --> 06:58.190 Secondly, 06:58.500 --> 07:00.170 as you start to unpack 07:00.309 --> 07:03.649 what's really happening around who's going back to the office or not. 07:03.660 --> 07:05.589 Castle Systems has been 07:05.929 --> 07:06.149 um 07:06.320 --> 07:06.769 you know, 07:06.779 --> 07:11.109 tracking if you will the way in which we've had key carting into various offices. 07:11.119 --> 07:14.540 And it's been hovering in the high forties underneath 50% 07:14.649 --> 07:16.790 also for the last 18 months. 07:16.850 --> 07:18.670 And so even with all of the different 07:18.679 --> 07:21.339 return to office discussions that have happened, 07:21.350 --> 07:22.649 we'll come back after Labor Day, 07:22.660 --> 07:25.089 we'll come back after the holidays at Christmas time. 07:25.320 --> 07:29.980 Um It's not really pierced the 50% mark, maybe only once or twice. 07:30.190 --> 07:33.269 And so this voting with your feet dimension around 07:33.369 --> 07:35.450 what exists there is also prevalent. 07:35.959 --> 07:38.720 And then finally, I think it's really worth pointing out 07:39.559 --> 07:40.010 that 07:40.269 --> 07:44.989 in our 2022 and 2023 millennial and gen Z studies 07:45.000 --> 07:48.500 and in our 2022 and 2023 women at work studies, 07:48.829 --> 07:50.769 the desire for flexibility, 07:50.799 --> 07:54.410 the desire for the hybrid model continues to be one of the top reasons why 07:54.649 --> 07:57.200 those populations choose an employer. 07:57.350 --> 08:01.279 Of course, they're looking for other things as well. But flexibility in the 08:01.480 --> 08:02.359 and, and the, 08:02.369 --> 08:05.130 the promise that it gives them to sort of integrate their home and 08:05.140 --> 08:09.959 work life continues to be really important for the workforce of the, 08:09.970 --> 08:10.929 of, of the day. 08:10.989 --> 08:14.920 And so I think more organizations are needing to recognize 08:15.299 --> 08:17.799 that they need to take those things into account. This 08:17.910 --> 08:18.959 idea that 08:19.170 --> 08:20.980 the recession may actually 08:21.109 --> 08:23.839 shift the dynamic of who holds the upper hand. 08:24.399 --> 08:26.589 And it it is going to distract 08:26.839 --> 08:30.320 employers from putting in place sort of the programs they need to 08:30.329 --> 08:33.770 think about that will really attract the employees that they're looking for. 08:34.808 --> 08:38.599 Yeah. That's a really fascinating, um, stat Steve, when you talk about, 08:38.710 --> 08:43.780 um, the, the, the data showing return to the office has been hovering for a while now, 08:43.789 --> 08:45.500 around 50%. 08:45.510 --> 08:46.840 Right. It's almost like 08:47.070 --> 08:51.500 in some ways employers are stuck being able to move that forward. 08:51.510 --> 08:55.900 Do you, do you have any perspective on why that is um why they haven't been able to, 08:55.909 --> 08:57.859 why it got to 50% and stopped there? 08:57.869 --> 08:59.619 I mean, it's, that's a unique number. 09:00.919 --> 09:02.349 Yeah, I mean, it, it's interesting, 09:02.359 --> 09:07.190 I think that that there's this um sort of overarching again, myth that 09:07.359 --> 09:08.789 the, the current workforce, 09:08.799 --> 09:11.250 the workers of today isn't interested in being in the office. 09:11.260 --> 09:12.669 And, and I would take issue with that, like, 09:12.679 --> 09:16.400 actually we are social animals and we are many 09:16.409 --> 09:18.929 uh thrive if you will in an office environment, 09:18.940 --> 09:22.090 collaborating with their, with their fellow colleagues. 09:22.099 --> 09:24.590 And so Gardner did a study recently where, 09:24.960 --> 09:28.989 you know, it asked him um the w the, it asked the, the survey respondents. 09:29.000 --> 09:31.539 So what, why would you come to the office 09:31.780 --> 09:33.969 and you know, very interesting answers, 09:33.979 --> 09:36.669 things like um learning opportunities 09:36.679 --> 09:38.559 or meeting with leadership or collaborating 09:38.570 --> 09:42.929 with employees or even to some extent like getting away from 09:43.140 --> 09:46.609 the dynamics at home and having sort of a quieter different place to work. 09:46.619 --> 09:50.710 And many of those respondents were all in like the high thirties, low 40%. 09:51.099 --> 09:53.250 But what was also interesting when 09:53.419 --> 09:54.760 Gartner asked, well, 09:54.770 --> 10:00.140 why don't you come to the office somewhere in the vicinity of 70% responded with. 10:00.150 --> 10:01.900 There's no compelling reason. 10:02.880 --> 10:04.700 And my interpretation of that is that 10:04.969 --> 10:07.830 the the employers of today have not thought hard enough 10:07.840 --> 10:11.489 about how do I intentionally create the environment in the office 10:11.729 --> 10:12.669 that I want to create, 10:12.679 --> 10:15.909 to create the compelling reason that connects to those reasons 10:16.090 --> 10:19.950 that I mentioned earlier around collaborating or meeting with 10:19.960 --> 10:22.934 um colleagues or meeting with leaders or so forth. 10:22.945 --> 10:24.804 And so I think there's still this real 10:24.815 --> 10:28.854 opportunity for employers to think more deliberately about 10:28.864 --> 10:30.835 what it is they want the workplace to 10:30.844 --> 10:34.244 be and how do they create that environment deliberately 10:34.354 --> 10:37.575 in a way that offers both the compelling reason to come into 10:37.585 --> 10:41.554 the office and the flexibility that their workforce is looking for? 10:42.440 --> 10:44.049 Yeah, that, that makes perfect sense. 10:44.059 --> 10:46.130 I like the idea of creating a compelling reason, 10:46.140 --> 10:49.070 but then it also creates the question, you know, what, 10:49.080 --> 10:51.190 what can organizations uh do 10:51.200 --> 10:54.869 to address potential performance discrepancies between 10:54.880 --> 10:57.710 those that may be in the office and remote workers? 10:57.719 --> 11:00.549 And it's not to suggest that your one is better than the other. 11:00.559 --> 11:02.840 But how do you, how do you treat performance for, 11:02.849 --> 11:04.869 for workers in those disparate environments? 11:05.659 --> 11:10.039 Well, I think that there's this uh presenteeism and you know, being uh and, 11:10.049 --> 11:14.229 and showing up dimension that we need to caution around because the, 11:14.469 --> 11:17.630 you know, again, many organizations have long been, 11:17.859 --> 11:21.229 you know, rather distributed, multi location, multinational. 11:21.289 --> 11:24.630 And we got accustomed in pre pandemic times to working in 11:24.799 --> 11:26.890 ways where there could be a group in a conference 11:26.900 --> 11:28.880 room and many people on a poly con and, 11:29.070 --> 11:31.030 and we found through the course of the pandemic, 11:31.039 --> 11:35.070 the benefit of using these collaboration tools differently, sort of the 11:35.299 --> 11:35.789 um 11:36.109 --> 11:39.289 you know, the equity that's created through many tiles on the screen, 11:39.299 --> 11:41.369 as opposed to that difference of those who's in, 11:41.380 --> 11:43.229 who's in the office and who's on the phone. 11:43.239 --> 11:43.489 And, 11:43.760 --> 11:44.469 and so 11:44.750 --> 11:47.330 the the real issue I think becomes one of 11:47.549 --> 11:50.609 how do organizations focus more on the outcomes? 11:50.710 --> 11:53.690 How do they focus on the output? How do they focus on 11:53.830 --> 11:57.030 the quality of what's delivered and produced as opposed 11:57.039 --> 11:59.909 to metrics that have to do more with, 12:00.159 --> 12:05.469 if you will hours worked or days in office or activities performed. 12:05.650 --> 12:06.229 And, 12:06.469 --> 12:09.390 you know, inherent in all of that is a dimension of 12:09.799 --> 12:13.179 the trust that you build with your employees around 12:13.539 --> 12:15.909 letting them sort of dictate 12:16.090 --> 12:18.690 that they can put their best foot forward in a particular way, 12:18.700 --> 12:20.380 working in the way that they work, best, 12:20.390 --> 12:22.599 working in the way that their teams work best. 12:22.739 --> 12:23.260 Now, of course, 12:23.270 --> 12:24.909 this puts a little bit of effort around 12:24.919 --> 12:27.929 project teams needing to sort of articulate together how 12:28.590 --> 12:30.250 and what that means as far as 12:30.530 --> 12:31.909 the work itself. 12:31.919 --> 12:36.049 But let the team and the work kind of dictate the, the model would be my advice. 12:36.390 --> 12:38.039 Yeah, that, that makes sense. 12:38.219 --> 12:42.440 Well, maybe just before we pivot to Joel, one final question, I think for you, Steve, 12:42.450 --> 12:45.309 um the, the skills that talent 12:45.440 --> 12:47.840 have and require working in a remote 12:47.969 --> 12:50.469 remote location or hybrid. 12:50.479 --> 12:52.599 Uh Does that mean employers have a 12:52.609 --> 12:54.760 different criteria for the talent they're searching? 12:54.770 --> 12:57.510 Do they need to have a broader spectrum of skills that they're 12:57.520 --> 13:00.979 looking for when they're looking to bring talent into an organization? 13:02.580 --> 13:03.830 I think that what, what, 13:03.840 --> 13:08.020 what we're experiencing in the market because of this hot labor market is the um 13:08.359 --> 13:12.349 definite gap in the skills that organizations are trying to find 13:12.359 --> 13:15.219 and need and sort of a mismatch if you will. 13:15.429 --> 13:16.619 Um I think that, 13:16.940 --> 13:20.799 that it, it sort of has started this discussion with organizations to look at 13:21.109 --> 13:25.530 more than pedigree and trying to find the talent they need, like looking past 13:25.760 --> 13:26.909 sort of um 13:27.210 --> 13:28.739 sort of their college degrees or looking 13:28.750 --> 13:31.130 past their educational degrees and looking more 13:31.140 --> 13:34.260 at what experiences that they have that they can bring to the table, 13:34.270 --> 13:37.219 getting to know the whole sort of worker as a human 13:37.320 --> 13:40.539 and the potential that they have. And I think within that 13:40.760 --> 13:43.929 there's this emerging benefit around those that 13:43.940 --> 13:46.270 are more comfortable if you will using these 13:46.280 --> 13:50.359 digital tool kits and those that are more comfortable working in a hybrid model. 13:50.369 --> 13:52.460 And then that leads to some really interesting 13:52.469 --> 13:55.669 outcomes as far as flexible work models, 13:55.679 --> 13:58.200 different workers coming to the table in a broad ecosystem. 13:58.210 --> 13:59.679 Now, we start thinking about, 13:59.919 --> 14:00.229 you know, 14:00.239 --> 14:02.539 contingents and part-time and vendors and gig workers 14:02.549 --> 14:04.280 and all sorts of things of that sort. 14:04.489 --> 14:07.020 But it's clear that those that are who are, 14:07.030 --> 14:12.859 who are facile in working in a virtual model are um you know, desirable in the, 14:12.869 --> 14:13.969 in the current work environment. 14:14.969 --> 14:16.460 Brilliant. Thanks Steve. 14:16.619 --> 14:20.330 So Joel, we've, we've talked for a few minutes now about, you know, 14:20.340 --> 14:24.109 how uh remote working is important and how companies are balancing that 14:24.119 --> 14:27.700 with the in-person mandates uh and how that will continue to evolve. 14:27.710 --> 14:30.059 But I don't think we can really talk for too long before we 14:30.070 --> 14:33.789 start talking about some of the tax regulatory and other impacts that are, 14:33.799 --> 14:37.000 are super important for, for organizations to consider it. 14:37.390 --> 14:40.960 Um And I think it's becoming increasingly important for organizations to know 14:40.969 --> 14:45.080 where their employees are particularly for these tax and regulatory reasons. 14:45.309 --> 14:50.059 And we've seen companies wrestling with this balancing this desire or perhaps the 14:50.070 --> 14:54.510 need to be compliant with the complexity of how you actually track where your 14:54.520 --> 14:58.580 employees are uh with one eye on the global tax authorities who know 14:58.590 --> 15:01.020 employees are working remotely and are interested 15:01.030 --> 15:02.900 in perhaps pursuing that extra tax. 15:03.169 --> 15:06.500 So it's it sort of raises several important questions. 15:06.760 --> 15:13.159 Um So my first question for you, Joel is in this continuing hybrid work area era. 15:13.270 --> 15:16.679 Um I think it would be helpful to remind everyone what those risks are that, 15:16.690 --> 15:17.940 that an organization 15:18.049 --> 15:21.630 should be concerned about, with, with, with respect to the authorities. 15:21.640 --> 15:23.880 And when we talk about leveraging technology 15:23.890 --> 15:26.330 to monitor where employees are working from, 15:26.340 --> 15:29.460 how does that technology actually help mitigate the 15:29.469 --> 15:32.159 risks um that these companies are concerned about 15:33.510 --> 15:34.940 good questions there, Jim. 15:34.950 --> 15:38.770 Um So kind of taking it a bit beyond a bit beyond the discussion around 15:38.780 --> 15:42.369 town and focusing a bit more on the in the tax and regulatory space. 15:42.659 --> 15:46.330 Um So we had done, we had done a survey late 15:46.520 --> 15:48.109 in 2022 15:48.460 --> 15:49.320 and 15:49.450 --> 15:52.229 one of the top challenges that companies were 15:52.239 --> 15:55.179 facing in this space across every industry, 15:55.190 --> 15:58.989 across every ge geography was really around how to 15:59.000 --> 16:02.340 manage some of these tax and regulatory issues. 16:02.669 --> 16:06.140 Um And, and it really comes down to this, Jim, it's, it's, it's really about, 16:06.150 --> 16:06.320 you know, 16:06.330 --> 16:09.640 to the extent you no longer have employees working in 16:09.650 --> 16:13.020 the physical office um but are working in disparate locations. 16:13.030 --> 16:16.239 Um Oftentimes around the globe, um you know, 16:16.250 --> 16:19.679 that gives rise to a number of different tax and regulatory challenges. 16:19.690 --> 16:21.369 So, for example, um you know, 16:21.380 --> 16:24.109 to the extent you have employees working in new jurisdictions, 16:24.140 --> 16:26.530 uh there are new payroll registration requirements 16:26.539 --> 16:28.280 that the employer needs to comply with. 16:28.539 --> 16:30.520 Um to the extent you've got, you know, 16:30.530 --> 16:33.830 employees working in different domestic states. 16:33.900 --> 16:37.429 Uh Does that give rise to, you know, corporate nexus issues? 16:37.440 --> 16:39.679 You now have a connection with the new jurisdiction and 16:39.690 --> 16:42.169 you might need to pay corporate tax in that jurisdiction. 16:42.429 --> 16:44.859 Um And the same globally, right? So you've got 16:44.960 --> 16:48.020 um I I employees working um in different 16:48.030 --> 16:51.109 countries and that can create permanent establishment issues. 16:51.140 --> 16:55.349 But then getting beyond tax, the issues, get a can even get a bit thornier. 16:55.520 --> 16:58.789 Um You know, you're dealing with issues like immigration issues. 16:58.799 --> 17:01.500 Um Does the employee have the right to work in that jurisdiction? 17:01.820 --> 17:03.909 Um What are some of the regulatory issues? 17:03.919 --> 17:08.500 So, for example, there are certain labor rights issues in certain countries, 17:08.530 --> 17:12.290 um certain certain labor laws in different states and, 17:12.300 --> 17:16.449 and it becomes really complex when you start thinking about, um, you know, 17:16.459 --> 17:19.280 hybrid work, remote work, remote hires, 17:19.290 --> 17:21.780 you've got employees working in different locations. 17:21.810 --> 17:25.410 Um, you know, it becomes really complex to kind of pull this all together. 17:25.689 --> 17:29.270 Um The other thing that's become really interesting over the last um 17:29.469 --> 17:32.300 uh you know, I would say 6 to 12 months has been 17:32.540 --> 17:34.579 the uptick we've seen in business travel. 17:34.609 --> 17:36.540 So for the last few years, 17:36.550 --> 17:41.189 the issues that we've dealt with really kind of focused in the remote workspace. 17:41.229 --> 17:44.189 Um But now we've seen, you know, business travel, 17:44.199 --> 17:46.729 starting to resume pre-covid levels. 17:46.760 --> 17:50.989 And so tracking this workforce that's traveling for business and 17:51.000 --> 17:54.969 at the same time working remotely in different jurisdictions, 17:54.979 --> 17:58.050 um can create significant tax challenges. 17:58.670 --> 17:59.560 Yeah, that's brilliant, John, 17:59.569 --> 18:05.790 I wonder if you could just um how a few bars are where we sort of see authorities are. 18:05.800 --> 18:06.920 Um tax authorities, 18:06.930 --> 18:10.650 immigration authorities are right now with respect to focusing 18:10.660 --> 18:12.819 on the issues created by remote and hybrid work. 18:13.630 --> 18:15.199 So we're in an interesting spot. 18:15.209 --> 18:18.099 So, you know, keep in mind that, that, you know, we're coming off of, 18:18.109 --> 18:19.810 we're coming off of, you know, the, 18:19.819 --> 18:23.199 the COVID years where there was a significant amount of COVID relief. 18:23.209 --> 18:25.310 So go back to 2021. 18:25.479 --> 18:28.130 Um There wasn't a strong focus on this because of 18:28.140 --> 18:30.439 all the emergency COVID measures that were out there. 18:30.449 --> 18:32.380 So authorities were not focused on this. 18:32.890 --> 18:39.500 Um fast forwarding, um you know, to, to, to 22 most of that relief has expired. 18:39.619 --> 18:43.839 Um but the filing seasons are typically tend to lag. 18:43.849 --> 18:46.839 And so we're just getting in from a tax perspective, 18:46.849 --> 18:50.589 we're just getting into the 2022 tax season right now. 18:50.760 --> 18:54.390 And so we haven't seen a lot of enforcement in this space. 18:54.420 --> 18:58.984 Um We have seen a lot of discussion um amongst the tax authorities in terms 18:58.994 --> 19:03.285 of how they're going to deal with this in terms of hiring um additional, 19:03.295 --> 19:06.964 additional, um you know, auditors um at the global level, 19:06.974 --> 19:10.114 we've seen the OECD starting to tackle 19:10.125 --> 19:12.464 some of these issues and creating workforces, 19:12.474 --> 19:16.194 uh you know, creating work streams um to, to, to, 19:16.204 --> 19:19.805 to start thinking about the types of guidance they can issue, 19:19.905 --> 19:22.385 but we haven't yet seen a ton of enforcement, 19:22.989 --> 19:23.900 understood. 19:24.040 --> 19:28.209 So then, you know, organizations, companies know that the the risk is still there, 19:28.219 --> 19:30.099 authorities may still come knocking. 19:30.319 --> 19:33.400 Um And they have a potentially disparate workforce. 19:33.410 --> 19:35.739 Um Maybe some are mandated to come back to the office, 19:35.750 --> 19:39.689 maybe they have some element of knowing where some of their employees are, 19:39.959 --> 19:45.000 how are, how are organizations using technology to sort of solve for this issue? 19:45.229 --> 19:48.420 Um And what are some of the challenges that those organizations are having? 19:49.400 --> 19:52.030 So, so they're using technology in a couple of ways. 19:52.040 --> 19:54.479 I think, I think in the most basic way, 19:54.489 --> 19:58.329 using technology to simply identify employee locations, 19:58.339 --> 20:01.130 so understand where employees are actually working. 20:01.410 --> 20:04.050 Um And they're doing this in, in, in one or two ways. 20:04.060 --> 20:08.239 Um They're doing this by, you know, actively distributing surveys, 20:08.250 --> 20:12.030 um where employees can respond on a regular basis in terms of where they're at. 20:12.170 --> 20:15.359 Um But some companies are taking it a bit further. 20:15.369 --> 20:18.819 Um You know, obviously there are digital bread crumbs out there, 20:18.829 --> 20:21.479 things like VPN S badge swipes. 20:21.489 --> 20:25.864 Um This information is out there in terms of where employees are logging in. 20:25.984 --> 20:29.915 And so, you know, companies are taking the step to start, you know, 20:29.925 --> 20:32.755 being transparent with their employees that there's a need for them to 20:32.765 --> 20:35.944 use this information and how they're going to use this information. 20:36.094 --> 20:41.234 Um But starting to take steps to use technology to identify where employees are. 20:41.244 --> 20:43.935 So I'd say that's the first area employee identi 20:44.045 --> 20:46.015 identifying the location 20:46.209 --> 20:50.859 Um next is, is helping employers make these assessments because, you know, 20:50.869 --> 20:54.800 not all remote work assignments create the same level of risk. 20:54.900 --> 21:00.300 You know, sometimes some jurisdictions can create more risk than another. And so 21:00.439 --> 21:04.910 having technology that can help a company make an assessment as 21:04.920 --> 21:08.579 to whether a particular remote work assignment or hybrid work assignment 21:08.776 --> 21:12.187 creates a level of risk that's unacceptable for the company. 21:12.217 --> 21:14.927 Is another way that companies are using technology. 21:14.937 --> 21:19.036 There's technology available that has all this information that can easily 21:19.046 --> 21:23.906 cycle through an approval or decline result for for a company. 21:23.916 --> 21:25.737 And in fairly short order, 21:25.837 --> 21:29.886 um the third way in which they're using technology is really around. 21:29.896 --> 21:31.227 OK. So once they have this 21:31.343 --> 21:33.553 information, in terms of where employees are working, 21:33.764 --> 21:38.034 how are they taking this information and feeding it across the organization 21:38.293 --> 21:40.154 to all the appropriate stakeholders? 21:40.303 --> 21:43.234 We talked about the fact that payroll needs this information in 21:43.244 --> 21:47.484 order to do proper withholding corporate tax needs this information, 21:47.494 --> 21:50.614 but then start to think about beyond tax, 21:50.624 --> 21:53.404 think about say the finance organization and, and 21:53.803 --> 21:55.441 a gonna touch on this shortly. 21:55.451 --> 22:00.331 Um But start thinking about finance needs to understand where people are working so 22:00.340 --> 22:02.041 that they can better inform their real 22:02.051 --> 22:05.191 estate footprint um from a sustainability standpoint, 22:05.651 --> 22:09.061 you know, where are people working companies have sustainability goals? 22:09.071 --> 22:10.620 How does the remote work? 22:10.630 --> 22:14.411 Um how does that measurement to some of the goals um that, that, 22:14.421 --> 22:16.281 that companies have set out for themselves. 22:16.920 --> 22:18.150 Brilliant, thanks Joel. 22:18.160 --> 22:20.089 So that's, that's a great, great segue, 22:20.099 --> 22:24.079 I think to bring Carissa and Karen into this conversation because I think, you know, 22:24.089 --> 22:26.819 we tend to think of data and where employees are 22:26.829 --> 22:30.250 quite often historically focused on the tax and regulatory, 22:30.260 --> 22:31.650 but I'm very interested. 22:31.660 --> 22:33.199 Perhaps start with you, Carissa. 22:33.209 --> 22:36.920 How do you see clients using this data from a uh from a, 22:36.930 --> 22:40.689 from a real estate and then uh perhaps Karen from a sustainability perspective. 22:41.280 --> 22:42.290 Yeah, absolutely. 22:42.300 --> 22:42.469 I mean, 22:42.479 --> 22:44.800 there are so many use cases and business 22:44.810 --> 22:47.270 cases for an organization to collect this data, 22:47.390 --> 22:50.040 the workplace landscape and the workforce landscape 22:50.050 --> 22:52.209 are continuing to shift and change. 22:52.219 --> 22:53.589 We're not in a steady state. 22:53.849 --> 22:55.319 So put simply 22:55.680 --> 22:58.849 understanding where when and how the workforce is working is the 22:58.859 --> 23:02.770 missing ingredient to optimizing a real estate and workplace strategy. 23:02.780 --> 23:06.069 The richness this data can be so rich to inform 23:06.329 --> 23:09.540 decisions about how much space you need, where you need it, 23:09.550 --> 23:11.250 how you're going to operate it. 23:11.260 --> 23:13.869 And what are the digital workplace tools that you 23:13.880 --> 23:16.699 need to provide to make that work physical, 23:16.709 --> 23:19.930 digital workplace uh experience seamless. 23:20.349 --> 23:23.280 And this really is not a one and done exercise. 23:23.290 --> 23:24.619 You don't collect the data once, 23:24.630 --> 23:27.020 make a decision and then move on because 23:27.030 --> 23:29.119 as we see this landscape continuing to shift, 23:29.130 --> 23:31.900 as Steve noted the kind of the pendulum 23:31.910 --> 23:34.770 swinging back and forth about where people work, 23:34.780 --> 23:38.719 what the mandate is, you know, organizations need to be looking at this data 23:39.300 --> 23:41.680 as part of their business as usual analysis. 23:41.689 --> 23:43.750 So they can continue to iterate and re 23:43.760 --> 23:46.300 respond with a workplace strategy that's fit for 23:46.310 --> 23:49.910 purpose for their workforce to be enabled and 23:49.920 --> 23:51.750 they can optimize their cost base around. 23:51.930 --> 23:52.000 Real 23:53.500 --> 23:54.069 great. 23:54.500 --> 23:55.510 Any thoughts Karen? 23:58.180 --> 23:58.369 Yeah. 23:58.380 --> 23:59.589 From a data angle, 23:59.599 --> 24:03.270 it it's interesting there's no standard for companies right now on, 24:03.280 --> 24:05.410 on how to actually calculate a report 24:05.689 --> 24:06.369 um 24:06.569 --> 24:10.229 on, you know, emissions, which obviously I think is tied to 24:10.349 --> 24:12.020 where where people are working. 24:12.099 --> 24:15.359 Um Most people are are not kind of including um 24:15.369 --> 24:19.489 remote worker emissions in the reports and long-term goals. 24:19.750 --> 24:22.770 So, you know, I think right now, 24:23.079 --> 24:27.400 I think there's some stat like 13,000 companies report on environmental data 24:27.750 --> 24:33.780 and only 200 actually include their employee uh emissions in that in that data. 24:33.790 --> 24:36.170 So from a sustainability perspective, you know, it's 24:36.400 --> 24:39.479 um clearly tied to mobility and, 24:39.489 --> 24:41.939 and real estate and in this hybrid work environment, 24:42.180 --> 24:43.280 but there are 24:43.640 --> 24:47.170 ways that companies can track emissions of, 24:47.180 --> 24:53.189 of their employees and kind of use that data um to help from a sustainability ankle. 24:54.219 --> 24:55.109 Yeah, that's awesome. 24:55.119 --> 24:59.050 So we've got this data, we're able to use it at, at multiple different levels. 24:59.099 --> 25:02.939 Carrissa, let's let's dive in a little bit deeper here um with, 25:02.949 --> 25:06.150 with respect to the hybrid working models becoming more common. 25:06.160 --> 25:06.569 You know, 25:06.619 --> 25:09.349 there's no doubt the perspective on the use of 25:09.359 --> 25:12.680 physical space and how employers use it has shifted 25:12.869 --> 25:15.760 and we're seeing organizations are thinking about their teams and 25:15.770 --> 25:18.380 where they're based and how they're spread out locally, 25:18.390 --> 25:19.569 nationally, globally. 25:19.869 --> 25:24.459 Uh How, how, how are organizations, you know, office space being used? 25:24.469 --> 25:27.199 And does that real estate strategy require a rethink? 25:27.209 --> 25:30.000 You know, how is all of this changing the way, you know, 25:30.010 --> 25:32.719 our organizations use the space that they have? 25:32.729 --> 25:35.130 Perhaps you can unpack some of those trends for its career. So 25:35.949 --> 25:38.280 yeah, I think, I think it's fascinating from 25:38.439 --> 25:38.449 a 25:38.890 --> 25:42.550 from a global kind of experience of knowledge workers. 25:42.560 --> 25:45.199 The topic of hybrid work is now commonplace, right? 25:45.209 --> 25:46.459 It's on the tip of everyone's tongue. 25:46.469 --> 25:49.910 It's on the front page of every newspaper on a regular basis. 25:50.130 --> 25:52.280 But forward thinking business leaders, 25:52.290 --> 25:53.949 they've been on a concerted journey to 25:53.959 --> 25:57.420 increase workplace flexibility for m beyond, 25:57.430 --> 25:58.979 beyond the last decade. 25:59.250 --> 26:02.260 And there were a couple of things that opened the 26:02.270 --> 26:04.979 the door for these business leaders to do that. 26:04.989 --> 26:08.579 One is as personal technology such as smartphones 26:08.930 --> 26:13.180 became ubiquitous with, with the global population and the workforce. 26:13.189 --> 26:14.900 It untethered people from desks. 26:14.910 --> 26:18.449 You no longer needed to go to an office to log into a phone to get work done 26:18.810 --> 26:20.979 coupled with cloud technology, 26:21.209 --> 26:23.500 it enabled on the go collaboration. 26:23.510 --> 26:27.619 And so beyond needing to log into a desk to get connected to work, 26:27.630 --> 26:30.640 you could now work asynchronously with your colleagues 26:30.810 --> 26:32.290 in a really seamless way. 26:32.689 --> 26:33.099 And 26:33.660 --> 26:35.560 the third thing that I saw really 26:35.770 --> 26:41.339 impact business leaders adjustment to flexible working before the pandemic. 26:41.359 --> 26:44.680 Was this new generations of workers coming in and being much more 26:44.689 --> 26:48.790 vocal about their priorities and expectations about a work life balance. 26:49.140 --> 26:53.609 Now, what that means from a physical workplace perspective is it's triggered 26:53.750 --> 26:56.930 an idea and a model around activity based working. 26:56.939 --> 26:59.550 How do we design the office with 26:59.560 --> 27:02.510 different spaces to accommodate different activities? 27:02.810 --> 27:04.949 So things like um 27:05.074 --> 27:09.564 libraries for quiet, independent deep thinking work or interactive, 27:09.574 --> 27:13.704 collaborative spaces for ideation and problem solving 27:13.805 --> 27:17.234 and as hybrid as hybrid work becomes more structured as 27:17.244 --> 27:20.964 Steve mentioned with specific people coming in on specific days, 27:21.224 --> 27:21.405 you know, 27:21.415 --> 27:23.694 we're working with our clients to clearly define 27:23.704 --> 27:25.464 what the purpose of their offices are. 27:25.474 --> 27:28.854 Make those those journeys to the office deliberate 27:29.094 --> 27:29.724 so that 27:30.084 --> 27:34.145 when people, when work requires people to come together physically, 27:34.540 --> 27:37.140 you can design an office to accommodate the things they're 27:37.150 --> 27:39.030 going to be doing and it can be intentional. 27:40.000 --> 27:40.489 And this, 27:40.500 --> 27:43.930 this change in the workplace demand is I think causing a fundamental 27:43.939 --> 27:47.660 rethink for business leaders around how much what their workplace strategy is, 27:47.729 --> 27:50.130 how much space do they need, how do they lease it 27:50.530 --> 27:52.310 and how do their teams work when they're in it? 27:53.069 --> 27:53.280 Yeah, 27:53.839 --> 27:55.910 that, that, that makes sense. Um 27:56.020 --> 28:00.770 And of course, we we've had AAA deep conversation today so far around technology. 28:00.780 --> 28:02.250 So I'm curious, 28:02.319 --> 28:05.390 you know how organizations optimize their real real 28:05.400 --> 28:08.630 estate footprint um using insights from technology. 28:08.640 --> 28:11.650 And I've heard this sort of smart building technology term used, 28:11.660 --> 28:14.229 maybe you could tell us a little bit about how that works. 28:14.239 --> 28:15.010 Yeah, I mean, 28:15.020 --> 28:17.290 for anybody that's really familiar with the real estate 28:17.300 --> 28:20.369 industry will understand that in the built environment, 28:20.380 --> 28:23.670 integrating new technology into buildings is an enormous task. 28:24.010 --> 28:24.699 And so, 28:25.130 --> 28:29.599 you know, it's a very difficult complex, it has a broad ecosystem of players, 28:29.609 --> 28:34.739 it's taking a bit of time to, you know, allow buildings to become smart if you will, 28:35.310 --> 28:35.699 but 28:35.890 --> 28:37.290 occupiers of buildings. 28:37.300 --> 28:41.699 So businesses that are taking leases on these spaces of the operators of buildings, 28:41.709 --> 28:44.989 the facilities management companies have been really 28:45.170 --> 28:48.680 focused on how to extract data and insight about 28:48.689 --> 28:50.400 how spaces are being used for many years. 28:50.410 --> 28:53.359 And historically, it's been, you know, largely a manual exercise, 28:53.709 --> 28:55.780 whether it was mapping employees, 28:55.869 --> 28:58.729 the home locations and customer and client locations to 28:58.739 --> 29:01.699 determine what the best spot for an office is, 29:01.709 --> 29:06.699 either for transport, um commutiv or brand presence or, you know, 29:06.709 --> 29:09.209 people that worked in an office before the pandemic may 29:09.219 --> 29:11.890 have seen somebody walking around with a clipboard ticking. 29:11.900 --> 29:14.560 You know, is there someone in the seat, are there signs of life? 29:14.569 --> 29:16.319 Is it completely vacant? That's how, 29:16.579 --> 29:20.449 that's how building data has been collected in the past. 29:20.459 --> 29:22.890 But as we move to this intentional and deliberate space, 29:22.900 --> 29:26.010 we need to start using things like in buildings, in 29:26.239 --> 29:30.239 building sensors to understand where you have hotspots within 29:30.250 --> 29:34.540 a building understanding where your workforce is commuting from to 29:34.550 --> 29:36.260 understand how long the it takes them to get 29:36.270 --> 29:39.260 to the office to optimize that experience for them, 29:39.270 --> 29:41.420 giving them smart building controls, 29:41.430 --> 29:43.560 like lighting and temperature so they can 29:43.569 --> 29:45.989 create the environment that's best suited for, 29:46.000 --> 29:48.609 for what they're doing and and their personal needs. 29:48.619 --> 29:52.260 So smart building technology is really starting to become 29:52.430 --> 29:54.160 the norm in 29:54.770 --> 29:58.109 very um kind of prime buildings. 29:58.510 --> 30:02.199 And it's giving organizations a really rich set of data about 30:02.209 --> 30:05.979 who's using which space for how long and in what capacity? 30:06.660 --> 30:11.040 Ok, fascinating. And so how can understanding worker whereabouts? 30:11.050 --> 30:11.949 We talked a little about this, 30:11.959 --> 30:15.750 the data and we know about it this importance from a tax and regulatory perspective. 30:15.760 --> 30:18.699 But how can understanding worker whereabouts and 30:18.810 --> 30:22.880 their patterns of space usage in in the real estate world contribute 30:22.890 --> 30:26.010 to the decisions organizations are making about the real estate footprint. 30:26.680 --> 30:27.729 Yeah, I mean, Steve. 30:27.739 --> 30:30.869 Steve talked about the Castle data systems and 30:30.880 --> 30:34.290 what it's showing about the average in office occupancy 30:34.959 --> 30:37.569 to put a little bit of context around this real estate 30:37.579 --> 30:40.869 is one of the top three costs for most organizations. 30:41.010 --> 30:41.369 It 30:41.680 --> 30:44.349 it ranges between 8 to 12% of 30:45.160 --> 30:48.270 and in western countries, the typical lease length is going to be, you know, 30:48.280 --> 30:51.300 on average 10 years, maybe, maybe even longer. 30:51.630 --> 30:56.290 So this represents a significant cost commitment for businesses 30:56.439 --> 30:59.930 and yet we only are hitting, you know, 50% occupancy 31:00.260 --> 31:04.650 at, you know, at peak over the last 18 months prior to the pandemic, 31:05.160 --> 31:05.540 you know, 31:06.010 --> 31:11.359 best case, I would say we were seeing in, in the US 65 75% 31:11.459 --> 31:16.069 occupancy. So organizations were already carrying an extra level of cost 31:16.369 --> 31:19.089 and they are looking at how they can shed, 31:19.369 --> 31:23.869 shed excess space. And as we move into this structured hybrid 31:24.510 --> 31:25.540 world, 31:25.640 --> 31:29.969 there is a lot more opportunity on the table to be deliberate in 31:29.979 --> 31:32.920 those decisions about how much space you need and where you need it. 31:33.040 --> 31:35.729 So understanding who's coming 31:36.079 --> 31:38.900 and how they're using the space where 31:38.910 --> 31:41.260 they're working within and outside of an office 31:41.270 --> 31:44.400 allows an organization to right size what 31:44.410 --> 31:46.810 spaces they have and what they're providing. 31:46.900 --> 31:50.300 And one trend we're seeing occur is that 31:50.829 --> 31:53.040 organizations are starting to 31:53.270 --> 31:55.719 create kind of a hub and spoke model where 31:55.729 --> 31:59.689 they have maybe a primary location in a city center 32:00.010 --> 32:03.400 and deliberately bring people together for certain types of activities, 32:03.410 --> 32:09.050 whether it's town halls or other networking and learning activities and 32:09.060 --> 32:13.959 then creating kind of a spoke satellite system of offices or 32:14.189 --> 32:17.300 or spaces where their teams can go 32:17.449 --> 32:20.949 that are nearer to their homes in maybe more suburban or rural 32:20.959 --> 32:24.849 locations that allow them access to a space that's fit for purpose, 32:24.859 --> 32:26.339 connection to colleagues. 32:26.650 --> 32:32.290 But understanding where workers are can inform what that footprint of the real 32:32.300 --> 32:36.640 estate needs to be and really inform how much of it organizations need. 32:37.650 --> 32:39.719 Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Uh Thanks Chris. 32:39.729 --> 32:41.750 Actually, I find it fascinating because in, in, 32:41.760 --> 32:44.150 in the office that I'm tied to Tuesdays, 32:44.160 --> 32:47.560 Wednesdays and Thursdays it feels like it's 100% occupancy, 32:47.569 --> 32:49.760 maybe even 100 and 10% occupancy. 32:49.969 --> 32:53.709 So I guess it's all about occupancy over a, over a period of time, not just, er, 32:53.719 --> 32:55.510 when Jim needs to be in the office. 32:55.640 --> 32:56.099 So, let's 32:57.170 --> 32:58.109 sorry. Sorry. 32:58.349 --> 32:58.880 Um, let's, 32:58.890 --> 33:03.099 let's pivot slightly and talk about sustainability in relation to real estate. 33:03.109 --> 33:03.910 So, so Karen, 33:03.920 --> 33:08.160 let's bring you into the conversation with commuting less working from home. 33:08.234 --> 33:10.145 So, is it more energy efficient? 33:11.295 --> 33:12.224 Well, and you'd, 33:12.234 --> 33:15.755 you'd think that clearly the reduction in emissions even just 33:15.765 --> 33:19.185 from commuting alone would result in a net energy savings. 33:19.194 --> 33:19.545 But 33:19.785 --> 33:23.074 um it's not that black and white with hybrid work and that 33:23.084 --> 33:26.425 really has to do with that math of emissions due to commuting 33:26.810 --> 33:29.300 versus emissions while working from home. 33:29.550 --> 33:34.000 So working from home normally reduces net energy demand for 33:34.010 --> 33:37.439 a household that commutes by car except in several cases. 33:37.449 --> 33:40.890 So commute commuters that are taking public transport, typically, 33:41.089 --> 33:43.719 it's likely to actually increase their net energy demand, 33:43.969 --> 33:46.829 their emissions from commuting, you know, 33:46.839 --> 33:49.300 via communal transport is actually pretty low. 33:49.400 --> 33:51.500 Um versus what they're emitting at home, 33:51.660 --> 33:54.410 there are some seasonal differences there or those 33:54.420 --> 33:56.260 who are traveling by car less than four 33:56.270 --> 33:58.689 miles to work and their home could actually 33:58.699 --> 34:01.020 increase their total emissions by working from home. 34:01.560 --> 34:03.329 We found, you know, 34:03.339 --> 34:07.579 there are kind of lots of of studies around this right now in pre pandemic, 34:07.589 --> 34:13.969 a typical business uni user was really creating about £300 of carbon emissions, 34:13.978 --> 34:17.840 working on computers and sending emails and post pandemic. 34:17.969 --> 34:19.918 Our tech footprint is actually increased, 34:19.929 --> 34:22.300 there are fewer in person office interactions. 34:22.310 --> 34:23.830 That means there are more online 34:24.020 --> 34:25.340 uh emissions. 34:25.620 --> 34:30.350 The average home electricity consumption has risen more than 20% on weekdays. 34:30.570 --> 34:33.760 And so something else to consider is this picture of this. So they're, you know, 34:33.929 --> 34:38.270 in a company of 5000 people, we have 5000 people working from home. 34:38.280 --> 34:40.989 Um And they can end up actually using more energy than they would in 34:41.000 --> 34:43.739 the office is given that many businesses 34:43.750 --> 34:46.510 actually have those rotating days in office. 34:46.540 --> 34:50.949 And that means that they're maintaining that office energy demand full time 34:50.958 --> 34:54.290 while those who are working from home are also consuming energy. 34:54.399 --> 34:57.620 So no efficiencies of serving the masses there. 34:57.629 --> 35:00.110 So we really need to look at the whole picture. 35:00.120 --> 35:02.669 Um In some cases, we're really doubling our energy use. 35:03.320 --> 35:08.540 Yeah, that's a fascinating comment like potentially doubling our, our impact, 35:08.550 --> 35:10.030 which is, which is crazy. 35:10.050 --> 35:14.270 So how can organizations leverage the data that we have on remote work 35:14.280 --> 35:16.429 patterns to measure their impacts on 35:16.439 --> 35:19.239 sustainability and meet their sustainability goals? 35:19.729 --> 35:23.219 Yeah, I mean, and, and I mentioned before there's no standard here. 35:23.229 --> 35:27.179 Um but companies can track employee emissions in several ways. 35:27.189 --> 35:31.580 You can collect their remote work patterns like their energy consumption, 35:31.590 --> 35:34.929 commuting distance paper usage, you know, understand that. 35:35.100 --> 35:39.120 Um but you can also do things like making calculations based on 35:39.719 --> 35:44.610 employee location and and kind of average energy consumption in that area. 35:44.820 --> 35:47.709 Uh Some organizations are conducting surveys to determine 35:47.719 --> 35:50.750 actual employee energy use at their homes by doing 35:50.760 --> 35:53.449 an audit of which electronics each employee uses 35:53.459 --> 35:55.520 and estimating some of the power draw there. 35:55.969 --> 35:59.610 What's important there is also kind of where they purchase their power. 35:59.620 --> 36:01.489 Is it a renewable source? For example, 36:01.719 --> 36:03.129 um in these audits, 36:03.429 --> 36:08.010 organizations often kind of need to think about the impact of video conferencing 36:08.020 --> 36:10.750 and data transfers and this is something that not everybody thinks about. 36:10.760 --> 36:15.010 So every email um emits a carbon footprint. 36:15.020 --> 36:17.610 Um Carbon literacy is an organization that kind of 36:17.620 --> 36:19.729 estimates this and they estimate for every email. 36:19.840 --> 36:26.750 It is actually emitting somewhere between 0.03 g and 26 g of carbon. 36:26.959 --> 36:30.000 Um So, you know, being able to kind of calculate that is, 36:30.010 --> 36:32.270 is interesting and important. 36:32.280 --> 36:34.959 And again, we kind of meet those standards to, to drive 36:35.169 --> 36:38.139 how you know, how much work we're doing in this space. 36:38.830 --> 36:43.139 Interesting, Karen. So basically you're saying I should reduce my email output. 36:43.149 --> 36:45.290 That's fascinating. I'll, I'll definitely take that on. 36:46.830 --> 36:51.280 So then in this world, um what we, we, we, we've talked about hybrid and, 36:51.290 --> 36:54.590 and organizations going forward having to balance, you know, 36:54.600 --> 36:56.260 in office and remote work. 36:56.270 --> 36:58.860 So we, we do have, we do have an issue, we have to solve it. 36:58.870 --> 37:01.060 We don't want to be doubling our carbon footprint. 37:01.290 --> 37:05.429 You know, what, what steps can organizations take to optimize their remote work, 37:05.439 --> 37:09.166 infrastructure and policies to help support an overall greener 37:09.176 --> 37:11.996 work environment uh as well as meeting working needs. 37:12.835 --> 37:14.305 Well, we can't mandate, 37:14.315 --> 37:16.166 I guess that everyone work in a remote setting 37:16.176 --> 37:18.496 and have a perfect zero carbon home office. 37:18.506 --> 37:18.996 Right? Like 37:19.125 --> 37:20.206 everybody recycles, 37:20.216 --> 37:24.315 everybody composts and everybody buys power from renewable generation sources. 37:24.345 --> 37:27.186 Um You know, we all have energy efficient tools, et cetera, but 37:27.721 --> 37:31.132 organizations can offer benefits and incentives to help create 37:31.142 --> 37:33.922 a greener home and a greener home office environment. 37:34.112 --> 37:36.031 Um And that's where data comes back in a little bit. 37:36.041 --> 37:39.162 So you can use data to identify where energy efficient 37:39.172 --> 37:43.271 improvements can be made such as optimizing computer power settings, 37:43.281 --> 37:48.092 um encouraging the use of energy efficient devices, reducing server usage. 37:48.330 --> 37:50.199 Um Even, you know, 37:50.300 --> 37:55.889 making a centralized decision about using lower carbon services um and 37:55.899 --> 38:00.040 finding opportunities for even reducing waste like digital work flows, 38:00.050 --> 38:03.250 um collaboration tools that most of us have and 38:03.620 --> 38:07.000 we can also, you know, consider the environment, 38:07.520 --> 38:09.909 the environmental impact when we're selecting 38:10.030 --> 38:13.330 those centralized tools for managing remote technology. 38:13.340 --> 38:14.310 Um you know, 38:14.320 --> 38:17.439 choosing and promoting providers and home office 38:17.449 --> 38:20.149 equipment that really does prioritize sustainability, 38:20.159 --> 38:23.870 such as those with renewable energy commitments or carbon neutral operations. 38:24.070 --> 38:24.550 Um 38:25.030 --> 38:29.149 There are things that companies can do to kind of offer services 38:29.169 --> 38:30.810 to help research and switch employees 38:30.820 --> 38:32.780 home electricity generation to all renewables. 38:32.790 --> 38:34.379 We're actually seeing some of that too. 38:34.750 --> 38:37.010 And there's an element of culture here too and, 38:37.020 --> 38:40.939 and nurturing and fostering a culture of sustainability and remote work, 38:40.949 --> 38:45.110 sharing some of those best practices and success stories amongst employees, 38:45.120 --> 38:49.439 you know, encouraging people to adopt eco-friendly habits in their work routines. 38:49.540 --> 38:50.189 And then 38:50.760 --> 38:53.419 another kind of element of of tracking this and making 38:53.429 --> 38:55.090 sure that the things we're doing are actually working, 38:55.100 --> 38:55.280 right. 38:55.290 --> 38:58.090 So developing sustainability metrics and key 38:58.100 --> 39:00.370 performance indicators to track that progress and 39:00.379 --> 39:02.709 set targets for actually reducing carbon 39:02.719 --> 39:05.449 emissions and that overall environmental impact. 39:06.590 --> 39:08.000 That's excellent, Karen. 39:08.010 --> 39:08.610 Yeah, I mean, it's, 39:08.620 --> 39:10.939 it's amazing that just the conversation today where 39:10.949 --> 39:13.689 we've gone from tax and talent to, 39:13.699 --> 39:13.919 to 39:14.169 --> 39:18.060 sustainability and, and obviously into the impact in, in real estate. 39:18.070 --> 39:21.780 I think it just shows you how broad this topic is and I'm pretty sure we could, 39:21.790 --> 39:24.060 we could probably go for another 45 minutes. 39:24.070 --> 39:26.310 So we probably have to start bringing it to a close. 39:26.320 --> 39:29.560 So as we close out, maybe I'll start with you Joel, you know, 39:29.570 --> 39:32.179 and everyone feel free once Jol's finished to jump in. 39:32.189 --> 39:32.750 But what, 39:32.760 --> 39:37.419 what's your key recommendation for managing uh a hybrid workforce going forward? 39:38.139 --> 39:38.520 Jim? 39:38.530 --> 39:42.110 I think you hit the nail on the head when you said how broad this topic is and, and, 39:42.120 --> 39:45.389 and just listening to what we covered on this webcast today, 39:45.679 --> 39:49.770 um, you know, if you, if you think about it, you know, a as Stephen started, 39:49.780 --> 39:51.310 obviously, you know, 39:51.320 --> 39:56.520 these programs for the most part are being driven by hr talent issues, 39:56.530 --> 39:59.750 the employee experience, um how to, you know, how to, you know, 39:59.760 --> 40:02.550 expanded pool of resources, right? 40:02.689 --> 40:03.209 But, 40:03.350 --> 40:06.590 but hr can absolutely not go it alone. 40:06.600 --> 40:10.129 Um You know, there's, it, it's extremely important to be, you know, 40:10.139 --> 40:12.510 to be collaborating across the organization. 40:12.790 --> 40:16.300 Um you know, managing obviously some of the tax implications. 40:16.310 --> 40:19.620 Um You know, we talked about, we talked about the finance issues, 40:19.629 --> 40:22.580 the real estate issues, um the impact on sustainability. 40:22.590 --> 40:25.800 So being able to collaborate effectively across the 40:25.810 --> 40:28.699 organization is extremely important and I'll take it, 40:28.709 --> 40:29.879 you know, a step further. 40:29.985 --> 40:31.314 One of the companies that, you know, 40:31.324 --> 40:34.354 11 of the challenges companies are having when they're looking 40:34.364 --> 40:37.465 to implement technology is really getting their hands around. 40:37.475 --> 40:40.135 What are all the appropriate data inputs that 40:40.145 --> 40:42.895 we really need to make whatever technology or 40:42.905 --> 40:45.554 to implement whatever technology we're gonna implement and 40:45.564 --> 40:47.094 make it as effective as we can? 40:48.290 --> 40:48.830 Excellent. 40:50.320 --> 40:52.590 Any other thoughts? I don't know. Uh Steve, 40:54.189 --> 40:56.080 sure, you know, it's interesting um 40:56.500 --> 41:00.360 in our Human Capital Trends report, which we produced this year in January, our, 41:00.370 --> 41:01.800 our 13th year, 41:01.949 --> 41:04.699 we sort of cited the nature of how organizations and 41:04.709 --> 41:07.459 the dynamics around them are becoming a bit more boundary less 41:07.939 --> 41:09.879 in reference to some of what we're talking about here, right? 41:09.889 --> 41:10.979 Remote work hybrid work, 41:10.989 --> 41:14.159 like where are the boundaries of the organization in the workplace and so forth. 41:14.469 --> 41:16.350 And one of the things we found was that we need to be 41:16.360 --> 41:21.879 careful not to let legacy mindsets kind of hamper us from stepping into 41:22.080 --> 41:24.969 this future that the pandemic has accelerated us into. 41:25.399 --> 41:29.989 And so a lot of what needs to happen now is a new set of fundamentals. 41:30.000 --> 41:32.780 One where we're really starting to think about 41:33.090 --> 41:36.510 how do we experiment together on what works or doesn't work? 41:36.520 --> 41:39.659 How do we empower teams um and core with 41:39.669 --> 41:43.510 the workforce itself around these new solutions and how do 41:43.520 --> 41:45.919 we keep sort of human outcomes at the forefront 41:45.929 --> 41:48.199 of what we're thinking about as a North Star? 41:48.500 --> 41:51.760 And that gets to some of what Chris and Karen were talking about. 41:51.899 --> 41:55.060 And I think if organizations sort of step back and, 41:55.260 --> 41:58.100 and explore that new future in that way, 41:58.110 --> 42:00.360 thinking like a researcher co creating with the 42:00.370 --> 42:03.419 workforce directly and focusing on human outcomes, 42:03.429 --> 42:05.649 they can chart a path forward in this new world. 42:07.659 --> 42:10.669 Uh Yeah, Carissa, I just wanna closing comment there. 42:11.000 --> 42:15.679 Yeah, I, I love, I love both what Joel and Steve have just said because, you know, 42:15.689 --> 42:18.750 it is about collaborating across the stakeholder landscape. 42:18.939 --> 42:20.750 It's about thinking like a researcher. 42:20.760 --> 42:25.139 And for me, the key thing that organizations need to be doing is, 42:25.399 --> 42:29.334 you know, gathering this data, making it business as usual, looking at it, 42:29.344 --> 42:31.415 analyzing monitoring trends 42:31.604 --> 42:34.705 aligning that to the future of the business and where work is 42:34.715 --> 42:38.895 going so that you can make informed decisions that are data backed, 42:38.905 --> 42:41.435 they're collaborative and they are, you know, 42:41.445 --> 42:46.534 experimental to continue to iterate how we change our, our workplace. 42:47.439 --> 42:50.260 Yeah. So, so Karen closing thoughts, 42:50.540 --> 42:54.510 I think the last thing I would add there and love what everybody is saying here is that 42:54.649 --> 42:55.780 there are real world, 42:55.790 --> 42:59.479 real Earth implications to the decisions that organizations are making, 42:59.489 --> 43:02.570 whether they're, they have to track them or not. 43:02.620 --> 43:06.179 Um So considering that from a sustainability angle is, is gonna be important. 43:07.229 --> 43:08.340 Yeah, that's brilliant. 43:08.469 --> 43:12.330 Well, thanks panel for uh for your insights today. Super informa 43:12.449 --> 43:14.629 informative. I've certainly learned a lot. 43:14.719 --> 43:18.850 Um and it's been really great um working with you through this uh this whole session, 43:19.060 --> 43:22.909 I mean, assessing remote work and hybrid work I think is going to be vital, 43:22.919 --> 43:25.560 going forward from a tax legal sustainability 43:25.570 --> 43:27.540 and real estate perspective going forward. 43:27.800 --> 43:31.260 And I do think organizations do start to um start thinking about 43:31.270 --> 43:35.340 having a comprehensive assessment of how they're gonna manage this going forward. 43:35.620 --> 43:39.959 Um I think this, this whole talent place is, is, is incredibly complex. 43:40.010 --> 43:42.370 Um But if we don't get our arms around the issues today, 43:42.379 --> 43:45.209 we're really just creating problems for ourselves down the future. 43:45.219 --> 43:45.479 We have, 43:45.489 --> 43:47.340 we have to get our arms around it whilst it's still 43:47.350 --> 43:50.510 manageable and it doesn't and doesn't run away from us. 43:50.659 --> 43:53.790 So thanks again, panel for your participant adaptation today. 43:53.800 --> 43:57.760 Super, super helpful and really enjoyed chatting with you to those tuning in. 43:57.899 --> 44:00.209 Uh Thanks for spending a few minutes today with Deloitte. 44:00.219 --> 44:02.469 Uh We hope you found the conversation useful. 44:02.479 --> 44:03.959 I think one thing that's certain, 44:03.969 --> 44:05.879 the topic of how and where we work was going 44:05.889 --> 44:09.080 to continue to raise important questions in the future. 44:09.090 --> 44:11.080 And we hope we've given you some ideas to think about 44:11.090 --> 44:14.800 how you might master hybrid work in the flexibility age. 44:14.810 --> 44:15.800 So, thank you very much.