WEBVTT X-TIMESTAMP-MAP=LOCAL:00:00:00.000,MPEGTS:0 00:06.440 --> 00:08.920 Well, thank you and good morning. Um, as Hayley said, 00:08.939 --> 00:13.039 my name is Luke Horton and I'm the global infrastructure leader for advisory here at 00:13.039 --> 00:16.670 Deloitte, uh, along with a number of our other global leaders, 00:16.969 --> 00:20.159 um, and industry leaders, I'd like to welcome you here to this iconic venue, 00:20.329 --> 00:24.110 uh, the, the Rainbow Room in an iconic city here in New York, 00:24.280 --> 00:27.110 uh, for the launch of our infrastructure for a good barometer. 00:27.479 --> 00:32.250 Uh, this is an initiative that we've done together with the Economist Impact Unit, 00:32.450 --> 00:37.759 uh, Duke University, uh, the, the Nicholas Institute for Energy from Duke University, 00:38.029 --> 00:39.810 um, Environment and Sustainability. 00:40.689 --> 00:44.759 Uh, not only do we have a fantastic group of participants here in the room today, 00:44.889 --> 00:49.400 but I'd also like to welcome the over 1000 people that we have live streaming, 00:49.689 --> 00:55.880 uh, from India, Portugal, Canada, UAE, Ireland, Greece, and Africa, 00:56.200 --> 01:01.240 um, even as far away as Australia and beyond, uh, that group that's joining us virtually, 01:01.529 --> 01:04.459 um. It's interesting we have every continent of the 01:04.459 --> 01:10.220 world represented in joining us uh on this virtually and I think that's a testament to how 01:10.220 --> 01:11.930 important this topic is. 01:12.220 --> 01:16.470 Um, in addition, we are recording this, so this will, will continue to go around the world and, 01:16.580 --> 01:19.459 and, and have impact and uh I look, I'm very proud. 01:19.559 --> 01:23.860 Looking out at this room, had we have done this event perhaps 10 years ago, 01:23.910 --> 01:29.629 I would have seen a room full of men in suits and just looking around to see the number of 01:29.629 --> 01:34.550 women and the diversity and the impact of infrastructure for good that's already starting 01:34.550 --> 01:36.790 to happen is a very proud moment for us. 01:37.559 --> 01:42.620 Working with the economist impact in developing this uh this first of its kind tool was really 01:42.620 --> 01:44.550 an easy choice for us here at Deloitte. 01:44.879 --> 01:49.550 We strongly believe that investment in infrastructure can have a transformative power 01:49.550 --> 01:52.160 on economies and on societies. 01:52.980 --> 01:57.720 Um, to encourage global post-pandemic growth and prosperity, 01:58.199 --> 02:03.889 it is really critical that infrastructure, um, departments of governments and countries 02:03.889 --> 02:09.179 improve how they prioritize and utilize their infrastructure, and we hope that this tool will 02:09.179 --> 02:15.240 support a dialogue between key stakeholders in development as well as encouraging um 02:16.009 --> 02:19.570 impact in investment and private private sector participation. 02:20.550 --> 02:23.139 As well as transparency of regulation. 02:24.570 --> 02:30.149 So the infrastructure community, with there's an anticipated $5 trillion in global economic 02:30.149 --> 02:34.500 stimulus and infrastructure spending to be for that's forecasted annually. 02:34.990 --> 02:39.660 Now if you then start to talk about um net zero effects of infrastructure and what that means, 02:40.070 --> 02:44.690 anecdotally we're hearing that's 2 to 3 times that, so potentially up to $15 trillion a year 02:44.690 --> 02:46.630 being spent on infrastructure. 02:47.789 --> 02:53.190 The ability to shape the utilization, the prioritization and security and social impact 02:53.190 --> 02:56.399 of these funds is an enormous opportunity and a privilege. 02:56.949 --> 03:03.309 And uh one that as we hear about today, it's got to be tackled at the system level to affect 03:03.309 --> 03:05.059 widespread and lasting change. 03:06.729 --> 03:10.979 Collaboration between the public and private sectors will be key to this transformation. 03:11.130 --> 03:15.889 Um, it can't be done, uh, on its own, and innovation across industries is going to be 03:15.889 --> 03:18.970 really important. And we hope that this fosters a long-term 03:18.970 --> 03:21.210 vision for infrastructure far into the future. 03:22.050 --> 03:28.190 At its core, infrastructure is about delivering services and outcomes for users and 03:28.190 --> 03:31.130 citizens. If that's not what it's about, then we're 03:31.130 --> 03:34.039 simply building depreciating assets that sit on someone's balance sheet. 03:35.630 --> 03:39.210 At Deloitte, we're passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, 03:39.339 --> 03:43.580 as well as climate and sustainability, and we wanted to go further than than simply 03:43.580 --> 03:48.539 identifying and studying these areas. We wanted to measure them and we wanted to 03:48.539 --> 03:52.630 impact change. This is truly a world leading study and a tool 03:52.630 --> 03:56.309 that we believe uh shows real industry leadership and will shape the way 03:56.309 --> 03:59.080 infrastructure is planned and delivered around the globe. 04:00.589 --> 04:05.059 Over the next hour and a half, we'll explore the key findings of the barometer and the 04:05.059 --> 04:08.860 research itself. We'll take a look at the data and how the right 04:08.860 --> 04:13.779 policies, governance and investment in infrastructure can transform for the better. 04:14.580 --> 04:18.970 We'll then move to a panel discussion where we will welcome esteemed leaders from government, 04:19.320 --> 04:22.510 infrastructure and investment sector, as well as the academic arenas, 04:22.679 --> 04:28.119 um, to discuss what inclusive and sustainable infrastructure looks like around the world and 04:28.119 --> 04:29.480 how we can support its development. 04:31.309 --> 04:35.140 Where have we been going wrong and where can systematic improvements be made? 04:35.269 --> 04:36.790 We'll hear all about that later today. 04:37.790 --> 04:42.220 We hope that this combination of data, best practices, expert insights, 04:42.390 --> 04:48.149 and forward thinking will provide a new platform to assess the far-reaching impacts of 04:48.149 --> 04:49.299 well-designed infrastructure. 04:50.070 --> 04:56.399 Infrastructure that's not only on time and on budget, but one that's good for our communities, 04:56.649 --> 04:58.369 our citizens and our planet. 04:59.220 --> 05:02.980 I'm incredibly excited to kick off this event by welcoming Pratima Singh, 05:03.290 --> 05:07.579 who is a principal and project research lead from the Economist Impact um unit. 05:08.170 --> 05:12.079 Please welcome Pradima to the stage to give us an overview of how data from around the world 05:12.079 --> 05:15.529 comes together to form the infrastructure for good barometer. 05:15.739 --> 05:16.739 Welcome Pradama. 05:28.190 --> 05:29.380 Good morning everyone. 05:29.670 --> 05:34.309 Thank you for joining us today at the Rainbow Room, as Luke mentioned at a very iconic venue 05:34.309 --> 05:39.170 in a very iconic city, and also thank you to everyone joining us virtually. 05:39.470 --> 05:45.589 Um, as, um, economist Impact, we are very proud to lead the Infrastructure for Good 05:45.589 --> 05:49.390 initiative and to share the key findings with you today. 05:49.820 --> 05:54.369 I want to start by saying thank you to Deloitte for sponsoring this initiative from the 05:54.369 --> 05:58.209 beginning and thank you to Duke University's Nicholas School, 05:58.369 --> 06:01.839 Nicholas Institute for Energy, Environment and Sustainability. 06:01.890 --> 06:04.929 We have Doctor Jerome Lynch with us in the room who's the dean of. 06:05.045 --> 06:10.714 Engineering, um, and so thank you to our partners in ensuring that we are able to talk 06:10.714 --> 06:16.355 about this very important issue and to be able to measure progress against very critical 06:16.355 --> 06:20.154 factors that allow us to enable infrastructure for good. 06:20.779 --> 06:25.000 So I want to start by sharing a little bit about Economist Impact. 06:25.250 --> 06:28.239 We at Economist Impact, we're part of the economist group. 06:28.489 --> 06:34.880 We combined the rigor of a think tank with the creativity of a media brand to be able to 06:34.880 --> 06:39.640 engage audiences and to be able to bring stakeholders together to discuss important 06:39.640 --> 06:44.515 issues infrastructure for good we really. Believe in the power of infrastructure to 06:44.515 --> 06:48.684 transform societies. Investment in infrastructure can help us 06:48.684 --> 06:53.225 accelerate development, accelerate progress towards all of these SDGs. 06:53.364 --> 06:57.625 And so with that, I'm very excited to share a little bit about the Infrastructure for Good 06:57.625 --> 07:03.195 initiative and also about how all of this comes together to enable us to measure progress. 07:05.459 --> 07:10.670 All right, so as part of engaging this global audience, this influential audience, 07:10.950 --> 07:16.980 what we wanted to start doing is really be able to get consensus on what infrastructure for 07:16.980 --> 07:21.619 good really means. So we all know what infrastructure for bad 07:21.619 --> 07:25.450 looks like. So we wanted to understand how do we define 07:25.619 --> 07:26.859 infrastructure for good. 07:27.359 --> 07:31.399 How can we make sure that we're aligned with different stakeholders across the delivery 07:31.399 --> 07:35.070 process to understand what we're really trying to do here? 07:35.279 --> 07:39.950 And so to start with, let's talk about what infrastructure for good is. 07:40.279 --> 07:43.869 Infrastructure for good is infrastructure that addresses disparities, 07:44.239 --> 07:49.829 protects the environment, and creates widespread social and economic opportunity. 07:50.359 --> 07:54.519 We want you to understand who the beneficiaries of infrastructure for good are. 07:54.880 --> 08:00.750 Infrastructure that benefits individuals, communities, not just today but future 08:00.750 --> 08:03.609 generations and the environment. 08:03.899 --> 08:08.779 We have to have progress with a purpose. We need to make sure that we're engaging the 08:08.779 --> 08:10.869 planet in these conversations as well. 08:12.160 --> 08:15.019 And how do we enable infrastructure for good? 08:15.350 --> 08:19.459 Infrastructure for good requires a couple of things, very critical things, 08:19.589 --> 08:26.470 intentional planning and policies, transparency, and sustainable financing to be 08:26.470 --> 08:32.099 able to succeed. The infrastructure for good barometer is that 08:32.099 --> 08:37.099 it's at the core of this initiative. We're very proud to be able to examine and 08:37.099 --> 08:42.969 measure the outcomes and also the inputs that are required for infrastructure for good. 08:43.270 --> 08:46.020 So at its core, the infrastructure for good. 08:46.304 --> 08:51.244 The ranks 30 of the world's largest infrastructure markets. 08:51.445 --> 08:55.844 These 30 markets actually cover about 75% of global GDP, 08:56.085 --> 08:59.924 so we're really sort of extending ourselves and covering most of the infrastructure development 08:59.924 --> 09:03.164 that's going on and infrastructure investments that's taking place. 09:03.969 --> 09:09.969 To be able to gather insight from different stakeholders like academics, 09:10.270 --> 09:14.909 uh, financiers, multilateral banks that are financiers, um, 09:14.919 --> 09:19.969 and as well, uh, governments, key policy makers, and the whole spectrum of different 09:19.969 --> 09:25.320 stakeholders that are engaged in infrastructure and the intent of this tool is really to be 09:25.320 --> 09:27.400 able to measure country progress. 09:27.880 --> 09:33.359 Understand blind spots and understand how we can get a set of best practices to be able to 09:33.359 --> 09:38.820 overcome some of those blind spots or gaps and then to be able to create an actionable roadmap 09:39.000 --> 09:40.159 for policymakers. 09:41.010 --> 09:47.000 At the end of the day, the infrastructure for good barometer allows us to measure systemic 09:47.000 --> 09:49.030 change and systemic progress. 09:49.239 --> 09:54.169 So what we want to do with this is really to be able to understand the ecosystem to enable 09:54.169 --> 09:58.400 infrastructure for good. So we're not doing this for one project or 2 09:58.400 --> 10:02.559 projects or even 10 projects. We're able to ensure infrastructure for good 10:02.559 --> 10:05.520 happens across the board for all projects. 10:06.270 --> 10:11.409 And as a result, it was very important for us to understand what we are measuring. 10:11.700 --> 10:14.690 What does this infrastructure for good barometer measure. 10:15.299 --> 10:20.500 Essentially, it is a framework that is developed and comprises 64 unique indicators, 10:20.580 --> 10:26.659 quantitative qualitative indicators that at its core measure the critical foundations of 10:26.659 --> 10:27.859 infrastructure for good. 10:28.289 --> 10:34.909 And those are a country's ability to govern and plan infrastructure and 10:34.909 --> 10:41.179 also to be able to have sustainable financing and investment mechanisms to be able to fund 10:41.179 --> 10:46.140 infrastructure because if infrastructure is not financed sustainably in the long term, 10:46.270 --> 10:48.659 it cannot be net positive for society. 10:48.909 --> 10:53.190 And so these are the two general foundations of the infrastructure for good barometer. 10:53.760 --> 10:57.219 But we didn't want to stop there. We also wanted to understand how this really 10:57.219 --> 11:00.859 translates into outcomes, specifically. 11:01.900 --> 11:04.210 Key social and community impact. 11:05.090 --> 11:07.390 Economic benefits and empowerment. 11:08.070 --> 11:11.570 And of course, environmental resilience and sustainability. 11:12.059 --> 11:16.609 So our five pillars of the infrastructure for good barometer are governance, 11:16.859 --> 11:22.330 financing, social community impact, economic empowerment, as well as environmental 11:22.330 --> 11:26.530 resilience. All right, so with that, I'm very excited to 11:26.530 --> 11:31.210 jump right into the key findings of the 2023 Infrastructure for Good barometer. 11:33.119 --> 11:38.830 All right, let's start with the overall results. This is usually the most exciting part of of 11:38.830 --> 11:41.989 the research, but I want to draw your attention to a couple of things. 11:42.109 --> 11:46.750 But of course you'll see here the the labels in white are the leaders. 11:46.830 --> 11:53.140 So we've got Canada at the top position ranking 1 out of 30 with a score of 70.4%, 11:53.429 --> 11:58.890 followed closely by the United Kingdom with a score of 69.6% and several other European 11:58.890 --> 12:01.869 countries in the top 10 positions. 12:03.099 --> 12:06.289 Now, a couple of things to flag here. There are two key points that I want to make. 12:06.500 --> 12:11.900 One is that the best performing country, Canada, scores 70.4%. 12:11.900 --> 12:17.500 So we don't have any country that's hit the 80 score or even 75% for that matter. 12:17.700 --> 12:20.369 So we have a lot of room for progress still. 12:21.390 --> 12:25.969 And the second point is that Canada at the top is about 70. 12:26.299 --> 12:30.419 At the other end of the spectrum we have Nigeria with a score of 32.8. 12:30.700 --> 12:36.419 And so the disparity in the scores across these 30 countries is also very wide. 12:36.580 --> 12:42.770 Canada scores double that of Nigeria. And so there's a lot of room for progress at 12:42.770 --> 12:45.219 all levels across all markets yet. 12:47.619 --> 12:52.260 This disparity in performance is not just limited to countries. 12:52.500 --> 12:57.690 We're also seeing a disparity across the five pillars of the barometer. 12:58.099 --> 13:01.700 So we start with governance and planning, and so what we're seeing is that countries have 13:01.700 --> 13:06.539 relatively good planning mechanisms in place. It's the best scoring pillar here. 13:07.650 --> 13:11.950 Um, sustainable financing and investment, however, has room for improvement. 13:12.030 --> 13:15.940 It scores about 52. It is in fact the second lowest scoring pillar 13:15.940 --> 13:21.099 in our barometer. Now on the outcome site, it's interesting to 13:21.099 --> 13:26.419 see that social and community impact is actually the lowest scoring pillar with a score 13:26.419 --> 13:30.780 of 50.3%, which is just half. So we have a lot of room for improvement on 13:30.780 --> 13:34.919 this pillar. Economic benefits and empowerment is the best 13:34.919 --> 13:39.150 out of the outcome pillars at about 58, followed closely by environmental 13:39.150 --> 13:43.299 sustainability and resilience. So there's still a lot of work. 13:43.510 --> 13:47.840 There's still, there is some bright spots. We've got the mechanisms and the systems in 13:47.840 --> 13:54.349 place, but translating that through effective financing into outcomes is still very 13:54.349 --> 13:58.309 much a challenge and something that we need to achieve together. 14:00.229 --> 14:05.330 I'm going to jump into a few key findings, 5 to be exact. 14:05.500 --> 14:10.419 So starting with the pillar that I identified is the one that we need to do most work on, 14:10.460 --> 14:13.900 the one that we need to prioritize social and community impact. 14:14.770 --> 14:20.049 Couple of interesting findings from from the barometer here are that to improve social 14:20.049 --> 14:24.880 community impacts, what we need to do is address the gaps in planning. 14:25.010 --> 14:30.130 That's really where we're seeing a little bit of that um miss or the missing link here. 14:30.989 --> 14:36.799 Out of the 30 countries in the barometer, less than 1/4 are actually conducting national 14:36.799 --> 14:40.919 strategic social assessments. These form the basis of understanding what are 14:40.919 --> 14:45.750 those needs that we have in the in the market, in the community that we need to address 14:45.750 --> 14:52.099 through infrastructure. 24 out of 30 countries currently do not require 14:52.549 --> 14:56.229 an impact assessment or assessment of social impact in particular. 14:57.530 --> 15:01.640 But that said, there are a couple of interesting examples that we can share through 15:01.640 --> 15:03.630 the barometer of countries that are doing it right. 15:04.039 --> 15:09.000 We've got Australia, Canada, Norway, and South Africa that are the only countries, 15:09.039 --> 15:14.760 4 out of 30, that do both the social, the strategic social assessments and require 15:14.760 --> 15:16.280 projects to assess social impact. 15:16.979 --> 15:20.719 I wanted to flag South Africa here because it's an interesting example. 15:21.049 --> 15:26.090 Infrastructure strategies in South Africa today are informed by really good practice by 15:26.090 --> 15:31.289 cross-sectoral socioeconomic assessments. So this is really good because it's allowing us 15:31.289 --> 15:34.400 to be able to examine not just in one sector but across sectors, 15:34.530 --> 15:38.090 what are the needs, socioeconomic needs that need to be addressed. 15:38.820 --> 15:44.510 And infrastructure projects in South Africa are also required to evaluate impacts on the social 15:44.510 --> 15:47.200 economic conditions and on cultural heritage. 15:49.679 --> 15:53.580 The second learning that I wanted to talk a little bit about is environmental outcomes. 15:54.640 --> 15:59.539 The difference is that here we see that there are planning mechanisms in place, 15:59.669 --> 16:05.349 so environmental outcomes have the planning mechanisms, but translating that into effective 16:05.349 --> 16:08.140 policy is where we're seeing a bit of a missing link. 16:08.390 --> 16:15.219 So out of 30 countries, 28 actually have a national adaptation plan for infrastructure. 16:15.280 --> 16:18.349 The only two exceptions here are the US and Saudi Arabia. 16:19.359 --> 16:23.859 But translating that into policy is still missing, so we don't see, 16:23.909 --> 16:29.260 we see about 57% of the countries that we examined out of the 30 that lack energy 16:29.260 --> 16:34.010 efficiency standards for infrastructure. So we've got the the the blanket planning. 16:34.179 --> 16:39.859 How do we translate that into policies and targets that can hold the sector and cross 16:39.859 --> 16:41.020 sectors accountable? 16:43.109 --> 16:47.440 The third key finding here is on economic gains. So we talked about social, 16:47.520 --> 16:50.229 we talked about environment. Let's talk about economic gains. 16:50.479 --> 16:55.960 The difference here is that countries need to establish a virtuous cycle between 16:55.960 --> 16:59.109 implementation outcomes and investment. 16:59.330 --> 17:04.219 So where we see that happening and happening in tandem is where we see the most success. 17:04.640 --> 17:06.979 So I'll give you an example of Australia. 17:07.400 --> 17:10.560 Australia is ranked number 2 in the governance and planning pillar. 17:11.199 --> 17:15.260 And we know that the country does regular audits on national infrastructure. 17:15.300 --> 17:18.089 So we've got the mechanisms in place for efficient investment. 17:18.380 --> 17:24.579 So 3.5% of GDP is the number that Australia is currently investing both through public and 17:24.579 --> 17:26.810 private investments in infrastructure. 17:27.459 --> 17:30.020 How does that translate into economic gains? 17:30.670 --> 17:35.530 Infrastructure development in Australia is known to power job creation. 17:35.849 --> 17:41.969 So on average, we see that 1% of jobs are created directly through investment in 17:41.979 --> 17:44.719 infrastructure. That's the 30 country average. 17:45.089 --> 17:47.290 Australia on the other hand, is twice that number. 17:47.329 --> 17:51.560 It has 2% jobs created directly through investment in infrastructure, 17:51.810 --> 17:56.969 and it's 6 times the number of Mexico, which is 0.3%. 17:57.380 --> 18:02.140 So we can see that by effectively combining investment and implementation, 18:02.390 --> 18:06.709 we can translate those into direct job creation and other economic outcomes. 18:09.329 --> 18:13.550 The 4th key takeaway that I want to talk a little bit about is financing. 18:14.410 --> 18:20.160 Infrastructure financing we did talk about how this pillar leaves room for improvement is 18:20.160 --> 18:23.439 actually if sufficient financing is a widespread challenge. 18:23.449 --> 18:27.160 It's not just something that we see, you know, we would think that this is a challenge in 18:27.160 --> 18:30.560 developing countries no, this is actually something that we're seeing in developed 18:30.560 --> 18:36.599 markets as well, particularly as it relates to projects that are prioritizing social or 18:36.599 --> 18:38.199 environmental returns. 18:39.050 --> 18:44.359 So for instance, about half of the countries, about 14 out of 30 countries currently do not 18:44.359 --> 18:49.410 use things like sustainability linked financing, which we know is an effective tool to promote 18:49.410 --> 18:52.869 better outcomes. A couple of examples of countries that do this, 18:53.119 --> 18:54.229 Switzerland and Norway. 18:54.880 --> 19:00.319 They actually are able to target and achieve and manage to link their sustainability or 19:00.319 --> 19:03.079 environmental outcomes directly to financing mechanisms. 19:03.160 --> 19:07.359 And so you're able to create those right incentives to be able to fund infrastructure 19:07.359 --> 19:13.030 for good. Support. 19:13.280 --> 19:18.449 We know this is important because it helps create a pipeline of bankable projects. 19:18.560 --> 19:22.719 But if you don't have the right support, so 17 out of 30 countries do not have the effective 19:22.719 --> 19:27.599 or the adequate project preparation supports, currently, you're not able to translate that 19:27.599 --> 19:29.520 into bankable projects going forward. 19:30.550 --> 19:32.459 Kenya is an interesting example. 19:32.709 --> 19:38.349 Kenya has a PPP unit, a public-private partnership unit that provides support and 19:38.349 --> 19:43.680 advisory services for projects, and it actually manages a project facilitation fund. 19:43.869 --> 19:47.750 So we're seeing that that Kenya actually has some interesting best practices to share as 19:47.750 --> 19:53.430 well. And I did say 5, so the last key takeaway or 19:53.430 --> 19:57.689 the last key learning I will share with you is one of my favorites, 19:57.750 --> 20:02.949 in fact, is this idea of a double dividend which became very clear as we were analyzing 20:02.949 --> 20:08.339 this data. There are countries like Brazil and Sweden that 20:08.339 --> 20:11.969 are benefiting from a double dividend by investing in infrastructure, 20:12.260 --> 20:17.260 so they're using the investment of the transition to sustainable um uh renewable 20:17.260 --> 20:24.204 energy and using that as an opportunity to fund. To promote a boom in job creation. 20:24.525 --> 20:29.364 So you'll see here the clean energy job impacts, which is both direct and indirect jobs created 20:29.364 --> 20:31.555 through the clean energy sector, renewable energy sector. 20:31.724 --> 20:35.564 Brazil leads the way with 1.4%, followed closely by Sweden and a couple of other 20:35.564 --> 20:37.645 countries, Europe, and China. 20:38.199 --> 20:42.510 So this is really interesting. How do we think about infrastructure in a more 20:42.510 --> 20:45.310 holistic way? How do we break down those silos and think 20:45.310 --> 20:51.260 about amplifying the benefits by thinking about it in a systemic way as a whole rather than as 20:51.260 --> 20:56.550 individual sectors or as individual outcomes to be able to build this ecosystem? 20:57.609 --> 21:00.109 I also want to share an example from Canada. 21:00.400 --> 21:04.160 We've done a couple of different case studies where we translate what we've learned in the 21:04.160 --> 21:10.270 barometer to real life project examples, and one of my favorite examples here is the Two 21:10.270 --> 21:13.199 Deca project in Canada in British Columbia. 21:13.609 --> 21:20.160 It's a project that basically it's a geothermal plant that's built on an old gas field in the 21:20.160 --> 21:25.839 Lake Clark, and it's basically become one of the first commercially viable electricity 21:25.839 --> 21:29.829 production facilities using geothermal facilities in Canada. 21:29.880 --> 21:33.239 And, and if you look at how the the outcomes are actually measured, 21:33.280 --> 21:39.359 they achieve all three of our outcome indicators or outcome pillars environmental. 21:39.900 --> 21:42.500 This project is reducing the reliance on fossil fuels. 21:42.599 --> 21:48.540 It's, it's actually expected to provide electricity for about 14,000 homes across the 21:48.540 --> 21:52.140 region and then of course, um, build it out further through more investment. 21:53.140 --> 21:59.329 Social impact it's it's built it's owned by the local indigenous community and it has very 21:59.329 --> 22:04.329 strong engagement through regular updates and and of course newsletters and then also 22:04.329 --> 22:10.890 economic it is actually creating jobs for the local um population and it has priority in 22:10.969 --> 22:12.270 indigenous hiring. 22:12.810 --> 22:16.930 So being able to amplify the benefits of infrastructure for good can go a long way and 22:16.930 --> 22:21.650 allow us to reap those um that that benefit the progress over time. 22:23.310 --> 22:26.569 All right, with that, I want to in the last few minutes, uh, 22:26.709 --> 22:31.349 take you through a little bit about where you can find more information and how you can use 22:31.349 --> 22:35.780 some of this data and this because we want to make sure that all of this translates into 22:35.780 --> 22:39.589 outcome and impact on the ground. So I want to share a little bit about where you 22:39.589 --> 22:40.910 can get more details. 22:41.500 --> 22:45.930 All of this is available on our infrastructure forgood.com website. 22:46.140 --> 22:50.329 We've got things like podcasts where we dive deep into specific issues, 22:50.479 --> 22:55.380 uh, case studies I mentioned Canada. We also have case studies for Japan and India 22:55.619 --> 23:00.079 and of course the barometer where you can find all of this data and analysis, 23:00.339 --> 23:04.540 uh, for all 30 markets. We also have videos that talk about specific 23:04.540 --> 23:10.140 insights around social and of course, um, uh, the use cases for the barometer. 23:12.560 --> 23:17.510 A little bit about how you can use this data when you dive deeper into the barometer section, 23:17.680 --> 23:21.869 you can see what the rankings of the different countries are and the scores. 23:22.000 --> 23:26.069 So for instance here you can see the US is ranked 9th, 23:26.359 --> 23:31.719 Ireland is ranked 6th, and Japan is ranked 11th. So this is just a snapshot of the different 23:31.719 --> 23:33.520 scores and the rankings of the countries. 23:34.130 --> 23:36.589 You can go deeper into each pillar. 23:36.800 --> 23:40.920 This is really interesting because we fleshed out some of those key insights and takeaways at 23:40.920 --> 23:45.160 a pillar level and talked a little bit about different countries that are doing things in a 23:45.160 --> 23:48.750 different way that we can learn from. So for instance here you've got Pillar 4 on 23:48.750 --> 23:52.760 economic benefits, and then you've got a detailed analysis of Pillar 5 as well. 23:54.979 --> 23:59.760 And when you click on countries, here we've got Sweden, you can dive deep into how Sweden 23:59.760 --> 24:01.630 performs relative to all other countries. 24:01.880 --> 24:06.359 You can open up the different pillars. Here we've got the environmental sustainability 24:06.359 --> 24:09.790 and resilience pillar. You can see performance relative to average. 24:10.000 --> 24:11.160 So on environmental impact. 24:11.444 --> 24:16.824 Sweden does quite well um you can kind of hover around and examine their rank their score, 24:17.074 --> 24:20.064 and you can compare we're in the US, so let's compare to the US. 24:20.194 --> 24:25.145 You can compare to different countries to be able to examine uh what that distance between 24:25.185 --> 24:27.755 the country you've chosen and the comparison country looks like. 24:29.589 --> 24:33.739 All of this, uh, the barometer, the key findings report, 24:33.949 --> 24:38.229 and of course the entire workbook that allows us to be able to examine and play around with 24:38.229 --> 24:41.910 this data is all available on the infrastructure for Good hub. 24:43.869 --> 24:46.540 With that, I just want to say thank you for your attention today. 24:46.670 --> 24:50.900 Uh, we hope this was informative and for more information, questions, 24:50.949 --> 24:55.390 feel free to come find me after this discussion. I'd be happy to take you through more 24:55.390 --> 25:00.979 information and we also have our, um, a little iPad or a little computer section at the back 25:00.979 --> 25:05.339 there and we'd be happy to take you through the data and the analysis in more detail. 25:05.560 --> 25:06.670 So thank you very much. 25:17.270 --> 25:21.790 Thanks very much, Pratima for that very informative presentation um around the 25:21.790 --> 25:27.369 barometer barometer, and we can learn from countries that are uh leading the way and 25:27.369 --> 25:30.060 creating environments for equitable, sustainable. 25:30.560 --> 25:32.859 Uh, and resilient infrastructure. 25:33.229 --> 25:37.390 I think one of the temptations here is you can look at that and say I see how this applies to 25:37.390 --> 25:40.030 public sector, but what does this mean for me in in other areas? 25:40.150 --> 25:44.829 Well, if I'm looking to build a power plant, um, I want to understand what the community impact 25:44.829 --> 25:48.030 is going to be. I want to understand how sustainable the 25:48.030 --> 25:49.579 financing is going to be. 25:49.949 --> 25:53.500 So this is a very important uh cross-sectoral view. 25:53.829 --> 25:57.780 You might even think, well, I'm in technology, how does this matter? 25:57.910 --> 25:59.910 Well, where are you going to build your data centers? 26:00.599 --> 26:05.839 Data centers are hugely draining on power. They have huge implications for social 26:05.839 --> 26:09.359 connectivity. So you can see that this barometer really cuts 26:09.359 --> 26:15.599 across all sectors of society and um really provides an opportunity for us to shape the way 26:15.599 --> 26:18.199 that infrastructure is planned and thought about going forward. 26:18.989 --> 26:22.030 The case studies for the tool are very wide and varied, um, 26:22.079 --> 26:28.359 but having a data set like this is even more powerful and when you understand the why and 26:28.359 --> 26:30.949 the how, it's a very powerful combination. 26:31.160 --> 26:35.949 So why is infrastructure for good um important? Well, it's important now, 26:36.280 --> 26:39.949 and uh how can applying these good principles impact economies, 26:40.410 --> 26:45.390 the climate, um entire infrastructure ecosystems, and improve our quality of life. 26:46.530 --> 26:49.390 We're going to hear some of the answers to these questions with our panel. 26:49.449 --> 26:53.959 So please join me in welcoming to the stage our panel moderator is John Ferguson, 26:54.170 --> 26:58.160 who's global lead for new globalization, The Economist Impact, 26:58.469 --> 27:02.079 and our very impressive panelists who will join John in this discussion. 27:02.329 --> 27:07.650 We have Roland De Marcellus, who is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for International 27:07.650 --> 27:11.849 Finance and Development within the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs from the US State 27:11.849 --> 27:15.660 Department. We have Dan Briette, who's president Semra 27:15.660 --> 27:20.790 Infrastructure and the former US Secretary of Energy, and Elizabeth Losos, 27:20.849 --> 27:25.630 um, who's the executive in residence at Duke University's Nicholas Institute and adjunct 27:25.630 --> 27:28.099 professor at Nicholas School for the Environment. 27:28.540 --> 27:31.050 Please join me in welcoming our guests to the stage. 27:52.689 --> 27:59.560 Nice to meet you. For those of you 27:59.560 --> 28:01.880 joining us online, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're joining us. 28:01.959 --> 28:04.630 I hope you're well. Um, this is really exciting for us. 28:04.829 --> 28:07.510 Uh, as Pradima said, uh, we're really proud of this work, 28:07.719 --> 28:09.069 and it's a really critical topic. 28:09.640 --> 28:12.510 So for the next 40, 45 minutes, I have a great panel of experts. 28:12.819 --> 28:15.880 We we really want to jump into the, the how and why we do this. 28:16.369 --> 28:20.280 Um, I want to start with some of the challenges, but I will try and finish with a bit of a 28:20.280 --> 28:22.910 positive at the end, so we'll start off with some of the difficulties. 28:23.400 --> 28:25.199 But Elizabeth, maybe we can start with you. 28:26.130 --> 28:30.329 As Parliament was sharing a moment ago, even our top performing country in the Broometer 28:30.329 --> 28:34.760 Canada still has a lot of room to, to move, a lot of room to improve. 28:35.209 --> 28:38.890 Why is infrastructure the good and achieving all these outcomes at the same time so 28:38.890 --> 28:40.209 difficult, Elizabeth? 28:41.550 --> 28:46.589 Um, well, thank you for the question, John, and also I wanna thank economists Impact and 28:46.589 --> 28:51.199 Deloitte for, uh, allowing us to work on this project with you. 28:51.229 --> 28:58.060 It's been, uh, very exciting project and, um, really fantastic to see 28:58.060 --> 29:02.550 the results. So the interesting thing about infrastructure 29:02.550 --> 29:07.829 for good is we can see it's, it's very attractive and the infrastructure we build. 29:08.500 --> 29:15.469 Right now is essentially gonna set the course for the next half century and beyond so 29:15.839 --> 29:22.160 we build infrastructure for good and we really put ourselves on a path for decarbonization and 29:22.160 --> 29:23.839 sustainable development, etc. 29:24.359 --> 29:26.640 So why aren't we doing that? 29:27.459 --> 29:34.180 The other interesting backdrop is that unlike some of the world's other great challenges, 29:34.430 --> 29:41.189 there actually is money out there for this. It's not that uh we just don't have the money 29:41.189 --> 29:43.949 to do this. In fact, there are. 29:44.260 --> 29:50.569 ESG funds institutional pension and insurance funds with literally trillions of 29:50.569 --> 29:55.599 dollars that potentially look for projects like infrastructure for good. 29:55.849 --> 29:58.729 And so the question is why aren't we connecting that more? 29:58.849 --> 30:03.520 Why do we continue to not necessarily build infrastructure for good? 30:03.530 --> 30:04.689 Well, um. 30:05.469 --> 30:10.810 I'll give, there's a whole slew of reasons and we could spend easily spend 45 minutes on that. 30:10.949 --> 30:17.010 Let me, um, throw out two, top reasons for me. The first one is that 30:17.699 --> 30:22.949 Despite the fact that at least in the private sector and increasingly in the public sector, 30:23.160 --> 30:26.550 there is money out there. There is a reticence, 30:27.040 --> 30:29.319 um, because there are. 30:30.280 --> 30:36.579 Uh, risks that are perceived particularly in developing and emerging 30:36.579 --> 30:42.380 economies in places where we need this infrastructure more than anywhere else in the 30:42.380 --> 30:45.319 world as we could see places like Nigeria, etc. 30:45.819 --> 30:50.459 where they need it most, that's where it's hardest to get particularly the private but 30:50.459 --> 30:53.979 also public investments and um. 30:54.910 --> 31:01.750 They're really the first two, pillars that Fatima just described sort 31:01.750 --> 31:06.869 of point out what some of these barriers are, whether it's PPP office, 31:06.910 --> 31:13.579 public private partnership offices, or um issues with corruption and transparency, 31:13.829 --> 31:18.109 whether at the whole country level or specific to projects. 31:18.670 --> 31:23.180 Um, I'm not gonna go on because I have a feeling the other two panelists might have more 31:23.180 --> 31:26.609 to say on this topic, particularly bringing in private sector. 31:26.819 --> 31:31.050 So my second point, uh, also really comes out of the barometer, 31:31.060 --> 31:37.540 and that is traditionally we think of, we have, um, addressed infrastructure at 31:37.540 --> 31:39.060 one project at a time. 31:39.380 --> 31:46.369 And it's very hard, particularly when there are multiple benefits and multiple costs across 31:46.369 --> 31:53.160 different sectors to be able to really fully appreciate 31:53.479 --> 31:57.479 the full value of infrastructure for good if you do it one at a time. 31:57.689 --> 32:00.680 Infrastructure needs to be dealt with. 32:01.550 --> 32:08.280 At a systems level, it can't just be one sector and so that really requires governments. 32:08.349 --> 32:15.069 It requires planning, um, and early stage intervention so that by the time you get to the 32:15.069 --> 32:20.819 project level, a lot, it will be charted in the path towards infrastructure for good. 32:21.510 --> 32:23.939 Thank you so much, Dan, can I bring you in here? 32:25.209 --> 32:28.030 The challenges of trying to do all of this at the same time. 32:28.160 --> 32:29.359 What do you see from your perspective? 32:30.520 --> 32:33.680 Well, I, I think, you know, in, in part I agree with Elizabeth, 32:33.760 --> 32:36.430 you know, the issue for most of these projects is not money. 32:36.890 --> 32:39.400 Uh, money is available both in the private and the public sector. 32:39.439 --> 32:43.689 I mean we just saw the United States Congress, uh, adopt recently the infrastructure, 32:43.800 --> 32:48.189 uh, bills that passed here enormous amounts of capital, public capital being put toward, 32:48.599 --> 32:52.520 uh, not only research and development, but demonstration projects and new technologies 32:52.520 --> 32:54.819 that eventually will find their way into infrastructure. 32:55.160 --> 32:58.040 So, you know, money is, is not what I would call the, 32:58.079 --> 32:59.839 the, the, the critical point here. 33:00.439 --> 33:04.439 What we face in in the United States at least and perhaps in other parts of the world in 33:04.439 --> 33:07.689 which we, uh, do business in is frankly permitting. 33:08.160 --> 33:13.439 It's getting the approval you need to get the project built and as a colleague of mine in the 33:13.439 --> 33:18.599 industry, uh, CEO of a pretty large pipeline company recently pointed out that it takes them 33:18.599 --> 33:21.229 longer to get the permit than it does to build the pipeline. 33:21.479 --> 33:23.760 That's a problem and we have to address that. 33:24.000 --> 33:26.910 And I think, you know, the steps that we're taking most recently in the, 33:26.920 --> 33:28.640 uh, debt limit bill, I think are great. 33:28.989 --> 33:33.329 Uh, they're great first steps, uh, but that's really some of the issues we have to deal with, 33:33.339 --> 33:38.160 and that really I guess backs its way into, uh, the systemic planning that you're talking about, 33:38.209 --> 33:40.630 you know, what is it that we want to do for the next 5, 33:40.689 --> 33:44.589 1015 years, uh, as a country, and I think that, you know, 33:44.729 --> 33:48.170 while I am. Uh, suggesting that, you know, we can maybe do 33:48.170 --> 33:51.469 a better job of doing that here in the United States. 33:51.619 --> 33:56.900 Um, I don't think that I would agree with the argument or the point that we don't do any of 33:56.900 --> 34:02.099 it because if you, if you look at it, you know, we have in the United States the National 34:02.099 --> 34:05.770 Environmental Policy Act of 1970, 15 years ago. 34:06.060 --> 34:08.979 It's a national act. That is the very purpose of that Act. 34:09.469 --> 34:14.610 Is to help us coordinate a lot of these developments and focus on the environmental 34:14.610 --> 34:17.629 impact of those investments. So I don't think that we're completely 34:17.629 --> 34:18.979 deficient. Can we improve it? 34:19.040 --> 34:21.500 Yeah, I think we can, but I don't think that we're, you know, 34:21.699 --> 34:25.139 completely deficient there, but I, I, yeah, you know, I take that step back. 34:25.239 --> 34:29.573 I think our biggest challenge. Now it's just gaining approval not only for, 34:29.823 --> 34:32.583 you know, I, I, I, I happen to be in the, you know, the, 34:32.664 --> 34:35.053 uh, the natural gas space quite often. 34:35.384 --> 34:38.694 I am sensing that the same challenges are facing, uh, 34:38.704 --> 34:41.174 many of my colleagues in the renewable space as well. 34:41.263 --> 34:43.424 So I think it's something we need to address as a nation. 34:44.249 --> 34:45.599 Absolutely interesting. 34:45.878 --> 34:48.239 Roland, you've got lots of experience in this space. 34:48.569 --> 34:51.569 How are you seeing the challenges of trying to do infrastructure for good and achieve all 34:51.569 --> 34:52.678 these things at the same time? 34:53.510 --> 34:56.989 Um, first, I wanna thank you for including me here, uh, 34:57.050 --> 34:59.280 in this, in the presentation, uh, and the barometer. 34:59.290 --> 35:03.810 It's gonna be such a valuable effort and think so well with our own efforts. 35:03.889 --> 35:05.870 So you might ask why is the State Department here? 35:06.050 --> 35:09.600 Um, we're not, we don't fit in like everybody else here with the infrastructure, 35:09.689 --> 35:14.449 but actually we are, um, we've, uh, found that over the long term. 35:15.040 --> 35:18.510 Good infrastructure really matters for both political stability, 35:19.030 --> 35:24.350 economic and, uh, economic development, uh, and there's a growing realization about this, 35:24.479 --> 35:31.280 uh, internationally and in every sector, uh, so that's why we developed with our 35:31.280 --> 35:36.719 partners Japan and uh Australia a few years ago something called the Blue Dot network that 35:36.719 --> 35:41.879 would certify what we've determined to be good infrastructure so a project would have a 35:41.879 --> 35:44.479 certification like uh uh. 35:45.080 --> 35:50.169 Uh Uh, good, uh, have approval, but this is good infrastructure. 35:50.540 --> 35:54.850 The, um, it'd be voluntary and use existing standards. 35:54.939 --> 35:59.310 Uh, we don't want to add another layer of regulation, so the existing infrastructure, 35:59.379 --> 36:03.729 you know, IC performance standards, uh, G20 quality infrastructure, 36:03.929 --> 36:07.729 you know, all of the standards that are out there, but the ability to actually certify it, 36:08.100 --> 36:13.729 uh, and the goal here is threefold for the beneficiaries in those countries, 36:13.820 --> 36:15.580 so they know that they got good infrastructure. 36:15.959 --> 36:20.360 Uh, for those raising the financing and for the companies, uh, 36:20.590 --> 36:22.709 so the private sector is very much at the heart of this, 36:22.719 --> 36:26.030 and they cannot succeed without the private sector, which is why I'm so excited you invited 36:26.030 --> 36:28.949 me here. Uh, in fact, when we first started launching 36:28.949 --> 36:31.520 Blue Dot, it was actually here in New York where I came, 36:31.820 --> 36:33.389 and I know some of you probably in the audience. 36:34.020 --> 36:39.879 Uh, in early 2020, where the response from, uh, ratings agencies, 36:40.209 --> 36:45.080 um, uh, impact funds, OK, there's something here, so that's why we're so excited. 36:45.340 --> 36:48.459 Uh, I should also mention the name said why blue dot. 36:48.689 --> 36:54.000 So this comes from, uh, Carl Sagan 1970s when we finally you can see Earth from way out there 36:54.330 --> 36:57.219 and the little blue dot that we all inhabit, we all have to keep it, 36:57.409 --> 37:01.479 uh, going, uh, it's the only planet we currently can live on, 37:01.770 --> 37:04.370 um. I don't know, you know, that'll change soon. 37:04.449 --> 37:10.860 But anyway, um, so we're working with the OECD, uh, they're actually running the process of 37:10.860 --> 37:14.439 certifying these projects, coming with the standards which aligned very much with your 37:14.439 --> 37:15.810 barometer indicators. 37:16.659 --> 37:21.939 Uh, and, uh, we're very excited that the UK has just joined. 37:21.959 --> 37:25.429 Spain has just joined with another other countries now that are, 37:25.729 --> 37:27.870 um, looking at joining our our network. 37:28.280 --> 37:34.510 Uh, again, the purpose of it, however, is welle started with, 37:34.679 --> 37:36.600 uh, the need to get. 37:37.419 --> 37:43.810 Uh, money off the margins into infrastructure, uh, and our hope is that this helps, 37:43.820 --> 37:46.860 uh, on the risk side to at least quantify reduce risk, 37:47.020 --> 37:50.899 and the work that the barometer is doing is the on enabling environment is critical 37:50.899 --> 37:55.689 foundational work, uh, and that that has to happen to help build this, 37:56.020 --> 38:00.179 but we want to do again be voluntary but project by project basis create a. 38:00.354 --> 38:05.304 That could attract hopefully institutional investors and others to get that money off the 38:05.304 --> 38:09.885 sidelines because it is the bankable project is what we're after and making more bankable. 38:10.135 --> 38:13.495 uh, so again, thank you so much, uh, for including us, 38:13.584 --> 38:17.814 uh, and, uh, in, in the perfect, uh, integration with, 38:17.824 --> 38:19.935 with your own efforts. Thank you. Absolutely. 38:20.064 --> 38:22.104 Well, Roland, I've never had such an appreciative impediment, 38:22.145 --> 38:23.264 but thank you so much. 38:24.500 --> 38:28.020 Roland, I'll stay with you just for a moment, um, as Patton was talking about earlier, 38:28.620 --> 38:33.620 that social and community pillar was one of the, well, at least performing in the uh pillars in 38:33.620 --> 38:37.429 our, in our barometer. But yet such, such an important part of what 38:37.429 --> 38:40.429 this whole thing is all about the social and community impact. 38:41.679 --> 38:45.179 How are you thinking about that in your work and everything that you've done in this space 38:45.179 --> 38:47.479 to, to improve that sort of social outcome? 38:48.909 --> 38:52.250 A lot of these efforts have started a while ago, but we have still work to do. 38:52.500 --> 38:56.379 But it goes to what Pa said up front is the planning at the outset, 38:56.489 --> 39:00.409 the consultation process, the involvement, involvement of communities affected communities, 39:00.629 --> 39:04.739 because the challenge is is the disempowered, the marginalized are the ones who often pay the 39:04.739 --> 39:09.860 highest price, and we all, including the investors, pay that price over the long term if 39:09.860 --> 39:12.379 things don't work out. So it has to be built in upfront. 39:12.699 --> 39:17.189 Uh, and we do this through, uh, economic social impact assessments. 39:17.320 --> 39:20.909 So like blue dot if they check, they did it properly, uh, 39:21.360 --> 39:23.270 and it's been factored in. 39:23.649 --> 39:28.370 Uh, the IDB did a study that found that those that lack that planning that consultation, 39:28.719 --> 39:33.070 um, often have cost overruns of 15 to 70%. 39:33.610 --> 39:37.370 And time overruns of up to, you know, 1 year to 13 years. 39:37.620 --> 39:40.290 So it's worth that upfront investment of the consultation and, 39:40.459 --> 39:43.729 and so our goal is to help incentivize that and certify it. 39:44.179 --> 39:47.300 Absolutely. Elizabeth, again, saying in the social area. 39:48.350 --> 39:51.590 How are people doing this well? Is it, is it the social impact needs assessment 39:51.590 --> 39:54.669 at the start of the project, but I imagine it's also about the outcomes, 39:54.909 --> 39:59.510 the social outcomes of these major projects as well, so it's not just the involvement, 39:59.590 --> 40:02.100 the inclusion, that's focusing on the outcomes as well. 40:04.679 --> 40:10.689 Um, absolutely, and again, that, that comes to the, the projects you pick. 40:10.770 --> 40:16.989 I think that the, um, Well, 40:18.040 --> 40:23.689 Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's absolutely part of it and part of the barometer actually 40:23.689 --> 40:28.139 measures we're saying people aren't necessarily doing this everywhere like some countries are, 40:28.310 --> 40:31.100 um, but other countries what having challenges. 40:32.409 --> 40:39.129 Doing this Well, the, the social assessment that, that Roland just 40:39.129 --> 40:41.199 mentioned, it's, it's quite interesting. 40:41.449 --> 40:45.010 I think we've all heard about, uh, environmental impact assessments and 40:45.010 --> 40:49.250 increasingly strategic environmental assessments which try to. 40:50.129 --> 40:56.209 The strategic environmental assessments try to bring up front at the beginning before 40:56.209 --> 41:00.320 individual projects are done, a sense of what uh. 41:01.280 --> 41:07.389 Where projects should be placed, how we can deal with issues before we get into individual 41:07.389 --> 41:10.629 projects. You have the same process with social impact 41:10.629 --> 41:15.379 assessments and strategic social assessments, but It's, 41:15.389 --> 41:20.899 it's relatively new or at least it's adoption. So if you look for example at the barometer, 41:21.149 --> 41:26.459 it's one of the lower scoring indicators. Most countries just haven't, 41:26.590 --> 41:30.709 uh, it, it hasn't become part of the process and I don't. 41:31.479 --> 41:38.350 It's just, um, relatively new and needs to be adopted and I think that's a place 41:38.350 --> 41:42.010 you could look at countries to get a blueprint of who needs to be, 41:42.149 --> 41:44.580 which countries need to be focused on that. 41:44.870 --> 41:47.389 Because it does feel this social area, that's why I really wanted to start here. 41:48.050 --> 41:51.669 Progress there could be really quite significant if we if we get it right. 41:52.070 --> 41:57.320 Then where are you seeing this done well or the challenges in focusing on the social side of 41:57.320 --> 42:01.520 infrastructure I'm just curious, you know, thinking about what Elizabeth I'm wondering how 42:01.520 --> 42:05.429 much this relates to the form of a country adopts. 42:05.639 --> 42:07.149 I mean, you have more. 42:08.620 --> 42:13.669 Command type or you know uh control uh type governments where people just dictate where a 42:13.669 --> 42:18.330 project goes versus a country like ours in the United States where I can speak, 42:18.500 --> 42:21.290 you know, for the US industry the process begins very, 42:21.360 --> 42:24.739 very early, Roland. I mean one of the first things you do is to go 42:24.739 --> 42:28.820 meet with the community leaders and determine whether or not there's interest in a project 42:28.820 --> 42:32.979 like this, and I can tell you from firsthand. Experience of course it involves you know 42:32.979 --> 42:37.209 studies around economics people were interested in how many jobs is this gonna bring, 42:37.419 --> 42:39.370 you know, what does this mean to my tax base? 42:39.580 --> 42:43.169 Those are the questions you get first, you know, in in the conversation, 42:43.379 --> 42:47.500 but it always involves the environmental impact they want to know, 42:47.540 --> 42:51.290 you know, what are you gonna do in my community? How are you gonna conduct your business? 42:51.580 --> 42:55.820 And if you don't have answers for that, then the way the process works here in the United 42:55.820 --> 42:59.260 States is that the community has impact into the ultimate permitting of that project. 42:59.580 --> 43:04.760 And in my experience you're not getting the permits if you don't if you don't have the uh 43:04.760 --> 43:09.399 you know the community support so I I'm, I'm somewhat encouraged by what I see in certain 43:09.399 --> 43:13.590 parts of the world, but I'm just curious whether you know that's a function of democracy 43:13.590 --> 43:18.989 and the regulatory process we have here or just a lack of thought about how important this is, 43:19.399 --> 43:21.879 uh, to the ultimate, you know, infrastructure that's being, 43:21.919 --> 43:25.110 you know, developed around the world. there's some future research Patima for us to 43:25.110 --> 43:26.620 take forward. Thanks so much. 43:27.830 --> 43:29.669 I'll stay with you because you mentioned the environmental side, 43:29.709 --> 43:33.020 and I, I do think that social side is something we need to keep talking about and keep 43:33.020 --> 43:35.550 discussing and learning from each other, research and, 43:35.629 --> 43:38.149 and, and public policy and so on. But, but then, 43:38.189 --> 43:39.669 I just want to say on the environmental side. 43:40.629 --> 43:43.020 There's still some work to go there as we integrate. 43:43.139 --> 43:45.300 I know some countries are doing it well. There's, there's, 43:45.379 --> 43:48.780 there's planning going on, but we need to create our infrastructure. 43:48.820 --> 43:52.500 It's not only resilient to the unfortunate extreme weather events that will happen with 43:52.500 --> 43:56.489 climate change, but also help us to mitigate climate change as well. 43:56.969 --> 43:59.699 How, how is that going? What are you seeing when it comes to the 43:59.699 --> 44:02.060 environmental side of, of infrastructure projects? 44:02.830 --> 44:05.340 Well, I, I, I think you know a couple of things. 44:05.550 --> 44:09.139 One, we need to move a little faster on the research and development around, 44:09.350 --> 44:11.889 you know, things like battery storage or energy storage. 44:12.310 --> 44:17.500 So you know, developing, uh, long duration grid scale, uh, 44:17.510 --> 44:21.469 storage I think is important for the adoption or the increased adoption of renewable 44:21.469 --> 44:27.790 technologies today those technologies are in fact dependent upon fossil fuels or in certain 44:27.790 --> 44:31.070 cases nuclear power. You you must have firm power or what's called 44:31.070 --> 44:34.189 base load. power because we want these lights to stay on 44:34.189 --> 44:37.709 24/7. You all want those iPhones to work 24/7. 44:37.790 --> 44:41.340 You don't want to be dependent upon the weather, um, to use your, 44:41.370 --> 44:44.229 your iPhone. So it's important that we develop those types 44:44.229 --> 44:46.830 of technologies and we do that even more so. 44:47.149 --> 44:51.560 I think it's also important though that we recognize the good that comes from the legacy 44:51.560 --> 44:53.030 infrastructure that we have today. 44:53.530 --> 44:59.250 And I think we have to acknowledge the impact that the displacement of of coal with natural 44:59.250 --> 45:03.629 gas has had on the emissions not only here in the United States but around the world. 45:03.919 --> 45:08.879 That's an important attribute and important positive that we have to acknowledge and to the 45:08.879 --> 45:12.889 extent that we can replicate some of that in developing countries in particular, 45:13.159 --> 45:17.070 I think it's an intermediate or interim step that we should adopt and we should, 45:17.239 --> 45:21.679 we should take if we care about those extreme weather events that you just mentioned. 45:22.050 --> 45:26.770 Those are some of the things I think we have to do better and that involves and at least in my 45:26.770 --> 45:31.840 opinion, a more robust conversation about the state of the energy world in which we live, 45:32.090 --> 45:37.260 the import, the complexity of it, it's not as simple as simply adopting, 45:37.409 --> 45:40.439 you know, a new renewable technology. It doesn't work that way, 45:40.840 --> 45:46.360 um, so you know I, I, I see some challenges, but I also I see a lot of opportunity as well. 45:47.290 --> 45:51.239 Actually, well, let, let me bring you in here on the what can we do better on, 45:51.250 --> 45:53.360 on the climate environmental side of infrastructure. 45:53.810 --> 45:57.649 I think we're already moving in the right direction, but this issues only get more and 45:57.649 --> 45:58.959 more important to us. 45:59.330 --> 46:02.889 So, um, we need to create the right incentives to move in the right way. 46:02.969 --> 46:03.969 So like in our blue dot. 46:04.699 --> 46:08.810 We're gonna have 3 dots so you can they're gonna all be blue, 46:08.929 --> 46:12.760 all blue, but you get 12 or 3 dots depending how high you go, 46:12.850 --> 46:14.909 how ambitious you are on the environmental side. 46:15.409 --> 46:20.600 Some projects might not be ready to go, uh, fully, uh, 46:20.610 --> 46:24.689 to that level, but create that incentive and hopefully we're going to create these 46:24.689 --> 46:29.330 incentives, uh, through all of this, uh, and, um. 46:29.929 --> 46:33.620 You mentioned the importance of the right governance structure to create those incentives 46:33.620 --> 46:36.979 so that if it is a country where they don't do the proper consultation, 46:37.020 --> 46:39.959 whether environment or social, that they see next door, 46:40.100 --> 46:41.580 hey, investment is flowing in. 46:42.360 --> 46:45.929 And you can get a grassroots movement of people. We, we want that. 46:46.020 --> 46:48.820 Let's make the right changes. It's all about creating the right incentives. 46:49.020 --> 46:51.090 OK, incentives. OK, interesting. 46:51.340 --> 46:53.179 Elizabeth, I want to ask about those incentives. 46:54.370 --> 46:55.520 Why are they so important? 46:56.649 --> 47:00.050 do you see people doing, using those incentives well and others not? 47:02.239 --> 47:06.639 Well, it depends on where in the world you are uh in the US, 47:06.719 --> 47:12.530 of course we have the infrastructure Reduction Act right now and the bipartisan Infrastructure 47:12.530 --> 47:18.709 Investment and Jobs Act which really from the top down is is transforming 47:18.959 --> 47:24.919 infrastructure and um decarbonization as well as climate adaptation resilience. 47:25.870 --> 47:29.129 And it really is largely working on an incentive base. 47:29.169 --> 47:36.129 In fact, it's, it's become more subscribed than than even the Congressional Budget Office had 47:36.129 --> 47:41.320 predicted. So I think if you put the incentives out there, 47:41.729 --> 47:46.479 they will work. But it's still fairly top down, 47:46.610 --> 47:51.120 so we've got a ways to go. We've heard about the the permitting bottleneck, 47:51.169 --> 47:57.209 which is huge, but there are other bottlenecks between getting the incentive structure right 47:57.209 --> 48:02.090 and on the ground at the community level where infrastructure is actually being built. 48:02.929 --> 48:09.620 Uh, seen it take place and I can say, um, there are multiple layers and so I think 48:09.620 --> 48:15.669 it's at least in the US a very good start, but Uh, let's check in in 5, 48:15.679 --> 48:20.149 10 years. No, I just, you, you're right about the 48:20.149 --> 48:22.330 permitting issue. I mean, I was just reading this morning, 48:22.340 --> 48:25.479 as a matter of fact, the, the Energy Information Administration, 48:25.500 --> 48:29.169 which is part of the US Department of Energy, just put out its recent report. 48:29.500 --> 48:32.209 There were only 5 interstate pipelines approved last year. 48:32.540 --> 48:34.860 That's the lowest level since they've been keeping records, 48:34.939 --> 48:36.649 which started about 30 years ago. 48:36.899 --> 48:39.820 So I mean this is something we have to address as a country. 48:40.340 --> 48:44.129 Um, if we're going to tackle these challenges, and I suspect that it's not just, 48:44.290 --> 48:47.360 you know, pipelines, it's probably gonna move along the, 48:47.370 --> 48:51.800 the spectrum, you know, nuclear facilities, we have a lot of small modular reactor companies 48:51.800 --> 48:55.250 that are developing newer technologies that are very, very safe, 48:55.580 --> 49:00.010 uh, you know, we're sensing some of the land use challenges that people are facing with the, 49:00.300 --> 49:02.739 you know, placement of solar panels or the placement of windmills. 49:02.780 --> 49:06.659 These are all challenges we we're going to have to address if this infrastructure is going to 49:06.659 --> 49:09.929 be built out. Dan, let me ask you, uh, this might be an 49:09.929 --> 49:12.899 unfair question, so I apologies in advance, but, but. 49:13.620 --> 49:16.929 I want to ask about the, the, say here in the states, a country I love. 49:16.969 --> 49:19.050 I'm Australian if it wasn't obvious. I do love the states, 49:19.129 --> 49:23.030 right? But, but the pushback in some areas on ESG. 49:23.530 --> 49:26.760 There are some, maybe not in this room, maybe not joining us online, 49:26.870 --> 49:30.100 but there are some people who are pushing back on this whole moving around ESG. 49:30.209 --> 49:32.199 Is that a concern in the infrastructure space? 49:32.439 --> 49:34.010 Is that for some states? 49:34.939 --> 49:38.129 Going to slow down our progress addressing these environmental and climate issues. 49:38.959 --> 49:42.750 Maybe in some places, I mean, I, I don't know that it's in every place. 49:43.159 --> 49:46.870 um, look, whatever process I mean I mentioned NEPA earlier, 49:47.229 --> 49:53.830 uh, NEPA, I think had incredibly good, um, motivations. 49:54.189 --> 49:58.830 They're always gonna be people who are gonna abuse a process that's intended for good. 49:59.080 --> 50:02.360 So I mean, to the extent that ESG is producing good results, 50:02.399 --> 50:04.439 are always gonna be people out there who are gonna abuse it, 50:04.620 --> 50:08.159 you know, use it in ways that are not as constructive as they could be. 50:08.469 --> 50:11.979 Uh, does it hinder the investment? Does it completely shut it down? 50:12.100 --> 50:13.209 No, I don't think it does. 50:13.699 --> 50:15.899 Uh, I think it's just another option that people have, 50:16.060 --> 50:19.139 you know, they, you know, for folks who are interested in ESG investing, 50:19.149 --> 50:21.419 you have that ability. If you don't like that and you want to do 50:21.419 --> 50:25.929 something else, you have that option as well. But I don't know that it slows down a lot. 50:26.379 --> 50:27.610 Good. Roland, would you agree? 50:28.409 --> 50:33.479 Yes, uh, and I think It it might work with other countries, 50:33.600 --> 50:34.830 especially developing countries. 50:35.439 --> 50:38.239 They're not against ESG, they're against slowness, uh, 50:38.320 --> 50:43.719 and so we need to do better and, and the banks are trying to streamline and pick up the speed 50:43.719 --> 50:47.320 while respecting the standards and building in the right processes, 50:47.360 --> 50:50.729 and that that's an ongoing challenge, right, right, I agree, 50:51.560 --> 50:55.719 let me stay with you for a moment. I, I wanna pivot now to the economic side of 50:55.719 --> 50:58.199 things. Uh, I was fascinated by um one of the little 50:58.199 --> 51:00.479 graphics on Prada slides about. 51:01.199 --> 51:02.340 The jobs impact. 51:03.350 --> 51:08.330 Now, I'm an economist, I love the job job creation and investment in infrastructure 51:08.330 --> 51:12.780 projects can bring, but I was so interested in the discrepancy or the difference between 51:12.780 --> 51:16.659 different markets. What explains that, what drives that? 51:16.780 --> 51:20.209 How do we, how do we do better, so the jobs impact. 51:21.129 --> 51:22.209 Is higher. 51:23.580 --> 51:27.669 Totally agree, and I, I slide struck me as well, and I don't know how you do so well in 51:27.669 --> 51:31.500 Australia, but I've got to look at these great don't, uh, 51:31.870 --> 51:37.459 I've got to look at the data too, uh, because, uh, that did strike me and just creating, 51:37.870 --> 51:42.310 uh, local employment and again going back to developing countries of their populations in 51:42.310 --> 51:45.310 the work that that is greatly important, uh. 51:46.260 --> 51:49.770 For economic development skills transfer, long term development, 51:49.899 --> 51:51.649 which again is in everybody's interest. 51:51.860 --> 51:57.300 The other factor on the economic side is taking into account life cycle cost at the front end 51:57.300 --> 52:02.459 of a project rather than a low bid and really please the World Bank and the other banks 52:02.459 --> 52:04.570 already moving to this model. It takes more effort, 52:04.899 --> 52:07.820 uh, to quantify and and look at this. It's not just give me, 52:07.889 --> 52:09.729 you know, one figure. I look at it and make my decision. 52:09.739 --> 52:14.610 No, it's much more complex, uh, but we find that over the long run this is. 52:15.340 --> 52:21.850 Uh, all of our benefit, it's, um, for the country and the people they're getting the best 52:21.850 --> 52:27.679 deal of the long term, and then, uh, to our own private sector you can make it adds to their 52:27.679 --> 52:32.830 competitive, um, edge because often it is a better long term investment, 52:33.199 --> 52:37.439 uh, so, uh, I think those are two factors we really want to build in and again those are in 52:37.439 --> 52:38.669 the blue dots as well. 52:40.760 --> 52:43.000 Elizabeth, I wanna join those things together. I mean. 52:43.520 --> 52:48.739 I can only imagine that if we can maximize the jobs benefits in the for the local community, 52:48.989 --> 52:52.209 that also ties in with the, the social outcomes and the social impacts, 52:52.229 --> 52:56.570 so. There seems like a pretty big payoff or benefit 52:56.860 --> 52:59.100 if we get some of these things right at the same time. 53:00.250 --> 53:07.030 Absolutely and hopefully you find these sort of um as as Fatima said 53:07.030 --> 53:09.070 these double or triple dividends. 53:10.030 --> 53:13.010 It doesn't always work. I mean, for example, 53:13.179 --> 53:20.030 with renewable energy, once you build a solar farm or you build a wind farm, 53:20.340 --> 53:22.850 actually after the construction is done. 53:23.280 --> 53:28.959 Um, jobs go down, so it's, it's not to be Pollyannaish in that you always infrastructure 53:28.959 --> 53:35.129 for good, always leave for jobs. One of the interesting areas that's receiving, 53:35.159 --> 53:41.879 uh, increasing attention are nature-based infrastructure, nature based solutions because 53:42.639 --> 53:45.159 these are projects where you either have. 53:45.860 --> 53:50.850 A green project or what's called gray green where it's a combination of built 53:50.850 --> 53:57.169 infrastructure, natural infrastructure that takes the place of um of traditional built 53:57.169 --> 54:02.060 infrastructure and a lot of these projects are very attractive. 54:02.280 --> 54:09.070 because they have multiple benefits of course they have natural benefits often they do things 54:09.070 --> 54:14.020 like carbon sequestration. Certainly many of these protect against climate 54:14.020 --> 54:19.709 but interestingly there have been studies that show that these are some of the best um job 54:19.709 --> 54:21.629 producing uh. 54:22.649 --> 54:29.530 Subsectors in infrastructure, particularly in low income countries where um the cost of 54:29.530 --> 54:36.370 labor tends to be lower and so that happens to be a particularly strong uh benefit 54:36.370 --> 54:39.280 of nature-based infrastructure in many countries. 54:39.879 --> 54:42.770 Interesting. I want to ask you about this, this jobs benefit 54:42.770 --> 54:46.729 or that local community economic benefit from your perspective, 54:47.050 --> 54:50.520 particularly in your sector of your experience, how do we how do we try to maximize. 54:51.050 --> 54:54.709 That that positive outcome, well, you know, I think there are a number of different ways, 54:54.790 --> 54:58.909 but I mean, obviously when you're creating, you know, these projects you're bringing in 54:58.909 --> 55:03.100 enormous amounts of trade craft, welders, and plumbers and the jobs that are being created, 55:03.270 --> 55:06.179 it, it spikes in the early stages of these projects. 55:06.189 --> 55:08.800 I mean, and Elizabeth's point is correct. I mean, 55:08.870 --> 55:12.110 after it's built, then you see that number go down because you're not construction, 55:12.159 --> 55:16.229 you're just operating at that point, but the tax base continues. 55:16.610 --> 55:21.040 And the revenues that are generated from those facilities stay in those communities and that's 55:21.040 --> 55:26.169 an economic impact that I think the communities really really uh look toward these projects. 55:26.239 --> 55:30.239 So while the jobs may move the revenues stay, they're able to build schools, 55:30.280 --> 55:34.280 they're able to build, you know, local infrastructure that's separate apart from the 55:34.280 --> 55:36.600 energy infrastructure, at least in my case, that is very, 55:36.639 --> 55:38.959 very important. So I think those are the things that, 55:39.000 --> 55:43.790 you know, we can perhaps measure as well and point to as good societal outcomes. 55:43.959 --> 55:46.780 Yeah. Dan, is there a tension between. 55:48.070 --> 55:51.199 Bringing, using local workers and bringing workers from the outside, 55:51.949 --> 55:53.590 is there a balance that needs to be struck? 55:55.179 --> 55:56.939 I don't know if there's a balance. I mean, you know, 55:56.979 --> 56:01.060 the market is the market sometimes, you know, you build these places depending on where you 56:01.060 --> 56:04.580 are, uh, they can be remote sites. They simply aren't, 56:05.100 --> 56:08.659 you know, trained tradecraft. If you're building a nuclear facility, 56:08.699 --> 56:13.620 for instance, to become a certified nuclear welder takes years and sometimes that just 56:13.620 --> 56:18.530 doesn't exist in certain parts of the world and so you get to be dependent upon outside labor. 56:18.770 --> 56:22.300 I think the larger challenge is just training generally, you know, 56:22.560 --> 56:23.620 especially getting the. 56:23.929 --> 56:26.360 You know, the trade craft that's needed to build these facilities, 56:26.439 --> 56:29.500 be it a windmill, build a solar panel or whatever, uh, 56:29.510 --> 56:33.560 our investments in community colleges, our investments in the educational system in the 56:33.560 --> 56:39.330 vocational schools is absolutely critical, and then that that we talk we talk often about a 56:39.330 --> 56:41.530 collective responsibility here to achieve this. 56:41.959 --> 56:44.120 That's obviously that's sort of education and training. 56:45.699 --> 56:49.429 Sits with governments, state governments, federal governments, 56:49.459 --> 56:51.989 well, all of those, but also private industry, right? 56:52.020 --> 56:54.449 So I mean you know a lot of the industry today does, you know, 56:54.689 --> 56:58.820 uh, investment, they do invest in these local communities that is part of the planning 56:58.820 --> 57:03.780 process that we see early in early stages of permitting in early stages of, 57:03.820 --> 57:06.169 of infrastructure planning and development. 57:06.540 --> 57:09.860 One of the questions that I often get is, will you consider. 57:10.800 --> 57:14.629 You know, beginning a program, supporting a program, whatever the case may be in our local 57:14.629 --> 57:18.669 community college or in our local high school, those are important investments that the 57:18.669 --> 57:21.399 industry makes as well. So it's it's really a joint effort. 57:21.659 --> 57:26.340 Interesting, is that part of your thinking, part of the blue dot that that sort of training 57:26.340 --> 57:30.090 and supporting that that sort of learning and development? 57:30.389 --> 57:33.389 Yes, it's, um, it's actually the barometer too. I mean, 57:33.629 --> 57:38.300 the the actionable roadmap, you know, it's a country responsibility as well, 57:38.560 --> 57:40.620 but partnering, uh. 57:41.169 --> 57:45.560 Donor country recipient in developing that long term plan often, 57:45.929 --> 57:52.080 uh, educational systems aren't targeted the way that Das mentioned in some countries and and 57:52.080 --> 57:53.929 this is a mismatch. You have high youth unemployment. 57:54.090 --> 57:59.090 They're not training for the jobs. So that is one where our USAID and other parts 57:59.090 --> 58:00.840 of our government are already working. 58:01.139 --> 58:04.669 The MCC has done that, um, to get the skills right. 58:04.919 --> 58:08.000 It is a long term effort absolutely Elizabeth, please jump in. 58:08.530 --> 58:13.719 Um. I agree completely and I think um a lot of 58:13.719 --> 58:20.669 countries do it right even developing and emerging economies that require uh outside 58:20.669 --> 58:27.540 investors to actually hire locally train but um one point which is embedded in 58:27.540 --> 58:31.919 the barometer but doesn't get a lot of attention, which I think is really important is 58:31.919 --> 58:37.439 transparency, transparency and contracting and one of the ways that. 58:37.929 --> 58:42.909 Uh, you'll get these sorts of, um, initiatives when you're, 58:43.080 --> 58:48.520 you're bringing in outside contracts is making sure that these contracts are open so that one 58:48.520 --> 58:54.719 can see what is actually required, and I think it's just really so many of the different 58:54.719 --> 59:00.479 things that are built on in infrastructure could depend on transparency. 59:01.649 --> 59:05.750 And anti-corruption, but particularly transparency and things like that and when you 59:05.750 --> 59:09.389 say one can say you mean the local community, other businesses, 59:12.520 --> 59:13.889 everyone who has a stake all the stakeholders involved, right, 59:14.199 --> 59:15.639 because if you don't have that. 59:16.550 --> 59:19.570 You don't know what I can only imagine what questions get asked. 59:20.750 --> 59:26.129 Well, you know, people, it's, it's almost, uh, it's a naturally occurring conversation. 59:26.219 --> 59:29.719 So when you're developing something, I'll just use the United States because it's the easy 59:29.719 --> 59:32.989 example right now. If you do, I grew up in Southern Louisiana. 59:33.219 --> 59:36.550 I grew up my one of my earliest jobs was as a pipeline welder. 59:36.879 --> 59:39.850 Uh, that's what I did and you know when a big job came to town, 59:39.939 --> 59:42.959 you. Put in your bid for the work or you, you know, 59:43.040 --> 59:45.290 got hired by a subcontractor and you went off to work. 59:45.600 --> 59:47.550 Everyone on that job knew who was getting hired. 59:47.840 --> 59:51.050 So if you're gonna bring in, let's call it, you know, bring in dirt, 59:51.320 --> 59:54.719 if you're a trucking company and you're getting hired to bring in dirt to that facility, 59:55.280 --> 59:58.550 everyone on that job knew if that was a local supplier or not, 59:59.159 --> 01:00:03.959 and you couldn't avoid it and often your economic incentives as the developer of the 01:00:03.959 --> 01:00:05.350 project is to hire locally. Why? 01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:09.199 Because you don't want the guy driving his dump truck from California to deliver dirt in New 01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:10.399 Orleans. It's too expensive. 01:00:10.750 --> 01:00:15.179 You want to hire the local folks to do that so it is situational in some respects, 01:00:15.219 --> 01:00:20.179 and it is case by case in some respects, but by and large I think that there's not a tension 01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:25.300 between local and outside hiring writ large because I mean a lot of this has to come, 01:00:25.409 --> 01:00:31.340 you know, from local uh local um providers it's just in those highly technical areas where you 01:00:31.340 --> 01:00:35.020 tend to see, you know, some of the outside hiring that just must occur for what the 01:00:35.020 --> 01:00:36.209 reasons I mentioned earlier. 01:00:36.419 --> 01:00:39.780 You just simply can't find the trained, you know, skills that you need. 01:00:40.580 --> 01:00:42.919 And those are where the investments, you know, long term, 01:00:43.040 --> 01:00:46.840 if we think about this as life cycle analysis or we think about this in a longer term 01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:51.439 investment, you know, companies in our industry are happy to make those investments in the 01:00:51.439 --> 01:00:55.270 educational system because over time you want that to be local talent. 01:00:55.320 --> 01:01:00.560 You want to train that labor force locally so that you can sustain this business over a 2030, 01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:02.239 40, 50 year period. 01:01:03.790 --> 01:01:06.229 Absolutely Roland, I'll see you making notes. 01:01:06.860 --> 01:01:10.219 Well, thank you. Yes, um, coming back to Elizabeth about the 01:01:10.219 --> 01:01:14.379 reports transparency, uh, I was once at a session, uh, 01:01:14.469 --> 01:01:18.830 and with the many African finance ministers, and I asked them, 01:01:18.949 --> 01:01:21.300 so how do you see the benefits of transparency? 01:01:21.590 --> 01:01:26.429 And it got to many things you said, you know, anti-corruption, public accountability in the 01:01:26.429 --> 01:01:29.229 investment, uh, you know, uh. 01:01:30.030 --> 01:01:35.030 Better for long term financing, and he said, and about 50 basis points cheaper on the 01:01:35.030 --> 01:01:37.310 finance that got all the other finance minister's attention. 01:01:40.290 --> 01:01:42.000 Elizabeth, I just want to come on to the next area. 01:01:42.909 --> 01:01:45.350 I mean, you've all filled me with quite a lot of optimism here. 01:01:45.459 --> 01:01:47.689 I was hoping for more disagreement and more challenges and, 01:01:47.739 --> 01:01:50.810 you know, it's fine, it's fine. We can all agree. 01:01:51.060 --> 01:01:55.820 But one area I wanted to pick up, Elizabeth, is just the trade-offs. 01:01:55.939 --> 01:01:58.870 I mean, I think on one of our videos, and I encourage everyone to go to the hub and, 01:01:58.909 --> 01:01:59.939 and check it out, but. 01:02:00.810 --> 01:02:03.449 What experts was talking about, you know, sometimes you just, 01:02:03.479 --> 01:02:04.570 you can't wait for perfect. 01:02:05.629 --> 01:02:06.949 Don't wait for perfect. We can't, you know, 01:02:07.030 --> 01:02:09.189 some of these things we've got to move on, whether it's the climate side, 01:02:09.350 --> 01:02:10.429 the social side. 01:02:11.629 --> 01:02:15.629 So how do we think about the trade-offs, because we do need to get going, 01:02:15.919 --> 01:02:20.189 how would you talk about people in, in this, in this, in this room and joining us online? 01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.149 How should I think about the trade-offs of these various really important factors when 01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:26.760 perfection is probably too hard to achieve. 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:35.510 So that's tough because sometimes there are real trade-offs that you're really having to 01:02:35.510 --> 01:02:42.439 pick A or B and trying to balance them, but I'd say 01:02:42.439 --> 01:02:48.060 the the best way of addressing it is dealing with it early. 01:02:48.189 --> 01:02:54.860 The earlier you deal, the more likely you have fewer political and financial 01:02:55.229 --> 01:02:58.310 sort of vested interests in one direction or the other. 01:02:59.560 --> 01:03:05.020 Uh, let me give a couple of Quick examples to uh rail examples. 01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:12.429 The, um, if you do a a strategic environmental assessment 01:03:12.429 --> 01:03:16.620 for the transportation sector, rail sector early on, 01:03:16.909 --> 01:03:23.600 you can. You can just fairly easily chart uh 01:03:23.600 --> 01:03:30.199 around say protected areas or other sensitive areas or so that they don't say 01:03:30.449 --> 01:03:33.449 break up a community into two parts. 01:03:34.310 --> 01:03:40.939 Uh, disadvantaged communities, lower income communities often are ignored when these sorts 01:03:40.939 --> 01:03:45.060 of planning. Early on, it's really a minimal cost to make 01:03:45.060 --> 01:03:46.300 these types of adjustments. 01:03:47.229 --> 01:03:48.340 When you don't do it. 01:03:49.010 --> 01:03:55.709 Uh, an example is, um, there's a rail system that opened up in 01:03:55.709 --> 01:03:59.909 Kenya that goes straight through Nairobi National Park. 01:04:00.419 --> 01:04:06.360 And when it was initially planned they didn't do environmental impact assessment until way 01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:12.889 late in the process they the Kenyan actual civil society is quite strong for environmental 01:04:12.889 --> 01:04:16.850 impact they have separate judicial system just for these issues. 01:04:17.010 --> 01:04:20.010 They were sued. There were protests. 01:04:20.120 --> 01:04:25.250 It was the project was delayed for years and years. 01:04:25.620 --> 01:04:30.560 And in the end they, they couldn't move it around the park because it was way too late, 01:04:30.889 --> 01:04:37.850 so they ended up building these pylons 70 m in the air so that the train has 01:04:37.850 --> 01:04:42.000 a pretty extraordinary view over the national park, uh, 01:04:42.570 --> 01:04:49.209 but at a literally tens of millions if not more costs, not to mention all the 01:04:49.209 --> 01:04:50.860 years because. 01:04:51.139 --> 01:04:57.050 It wasn't, it wasn't addressed early in the process when it would have been a pretty 01:04:57.050 --> 01:05:01.330 inexpensive fix. Fascinating. Yeah, I do, I do want to ask you the same 01:05:01.330 --> 01:05:04.850 question again from your perspective, how people should think about the trade-offs when 01:05:04.850 --> 01:05:06.129 something isn't perfect, but. 01:05:07.080 --> 01:05:10.199 We need to get on with it. Yeah, I, I think it's important for us to, 01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:13.679 and I was having a couple of conversations with folks about energy transition earlier. 01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:15.919 It's important that we understand what the goal is, you know, 01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:20.260 we're thinking about this, this infrastructure project or infrastructure are good is I 01:05:20.260 --> 01:05:23.239 understand that, you know, based on the conversations I've had in the room and you know 01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:28.040 some of what we've heard today, you know, we're concerned about um emissions. 01:05:28.570 --> 01:05:32.479 And if we think about energy transition, you know, what are we transitioning? 01:05:32.639 --> 01:05:37.560 You know, the simplest definition is you're transitioning from something to something and 01:05:37.560 --> 01:05:40.959 the debate is what are you doing? Are you transitioning from fossil fuels to 01:05:40.959 --> 01:05:44.129 renewable energy? That's part of it, yes, I would argue that 01:05:44.560 --> 01:05:49.639 perhaps the more important thing is we're transitioning away from high emissions or high 01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:54.479 carbon emissions to lower carbon emissions. If you think about transition in that context 01:05:54.479 --> 01:05:55.560 or in that definition. 01:05:55.959 --> 01:05:59.919 Then you can help to find which projects are better at doing that than others. 01:06:00.169 --> 01:06:04.550 And that begins an easier process of deciding which tradeoffs are you're willing to accept 01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:09.760 and I mentioned earlier, you know, if you can displace heavy hydrocarbons in the communities 01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:14.830 and you know, the use of fuel oil in places like Boston or the use of coal in places like 01:06:14.830 --> 01:06:20.520 India, if we can help to displace more of that with natural gas or other forms of of uh of 01:06:20.520 --> 01:06:26.080 fuel sources and that reduces the emissions worldwide, that's a positive thing even though. 01:06:26.540 --> 01:06:30.790 What you're using are legacy fossil fuels to do exactly that. 01:06:31.100 --> 01:06:33.889 So that's a trade-off that I think we have to, you know, 01:06:34.139 --> 01:06:36.100 we have to evaluate and see whether it's worthwhile. 01:06:36.139 --> 01:06:39.399 But those, once you define the, the transition or the goal, 01:06:39.580 --> 01:06:40.929 then it becomes a little easier. 01:06:42.629 --> 01:06:46.580 Ron, what role does tradeoffs play in the, in your work in the Blue Dot initiative? 01:06:46.750 --> 01:06:48.020 Well, I think um. 01:06:48.879 --> 01:06:52.290 It's goes back again to transparency, uh. 01:06:53.159 --> 01:06:56.899 It's a country let's say making a decision, it's their sovereign decision. 01:06:57.229 --> 01:07:02.669 Uh, however, if it, it should ideally be transparent, have a lot of costs, 01:07:02.750 --> 01:07:09.149 all of these factors are laid out so that it is a well informed decision and that the public is 01:07:09.149 --> 01:07:11.389 part of that decision, uh. 01:07:12.370 --> 01:07:15.959 Then, then it's, you know, leave it to the country every blue dot, 01:07:16.270 --> 01:07:19.879 um, is a voluntary thing. So, OK, we want the blue dot project, 01:07:20.100 --> 01:07:22.629 uh, and we're going to tell our people why transparently. 01:07:22.989 --> 01:07:25.209 Uh, and again, I think. 01:07:25.600 --> 01:07:30.560 The long term, uh, this will prove itself, uh, but again, 01:07:30.850 --> 01:07:34.489 getting the facts out there and that's why the barometer and so many other initiatives taking 01:07:34.489 --> 01:07:39.260 off now are so helpful in getting that data out there so people can make that choice and the 01:07:39.260 --> 01:07:40.479 right one. Absolutely. 01:07:40.729 --> 01:07:42.949 Now we're coming just to the last few minutes of this conversation, 01:07:43.090 --> 01:07:46.090 so I'm gonna go in this order. 01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:49.909 Question without notice, of course, but just I wanna finish on a positive, 01:07:50.120 --> 01:07:52.199 right? I started with the challenges and some of the 01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:54.729 barriers and you've all talked through, through those. 01:07:54.979 --> 01:07:56.580 But an example. 01:07:56.919 --> 01:07:59.949 Now we have some great case studies and again encourage everyone to go have a look. 01:08:00.120 --> 01:08:01.550 I, I love those case studies. 01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:05.469 But is there one example project, um, that you'd point out to say, 01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:07.729 actually that's doing infrastructure for good pretty well. 01:08:08.479 --> 01:08:10.949 So I, I'll pick a tough one. It is not in the list of 30. 01:08:11.040 --> 01:08:14.679 Uh, uh, somehow Palau didn't make the list of 30 we'll get there, 01:08:17.200 --> 01:08:21.520 but this is a good story. So my colleagues on my team from state are 01:08:21.520 --> 01:08:25.270 actually in the air right now and will land in Palau, uh, 01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:29.680 in a few hours, uh, and Palau, there's a project there, 01:08:29.759 --> 01:08:35.640 a digital spur, uh, where again the bankability and the challenges of infrastructure developing 01:08:35.640 --> 01:08:36.959 world, uh. 01:08:37.350 --> 01:08:43.290 Are well known, but take a Pacific small island with a population about the size of 3 blocks 01:08:43.290 --> 01:08:46.620 either direction here and you've got a real challenge, uh, 01:08:46.870 --> 01:08:50.500 but just you said good news, so we did we did this spur, 01:08:50.950 --> 01:08:56.430 uh, we did some capacity building, but what it takes is extra effort and we're trying to 01:08:56.430 --> 01:08:58.870 better organize the US government to do its part. 01:08:59.350 --> 01:09:01.790 With our partners. So we have the Department of Interior involved, 01:09:01.990 --> 01:09:08.060 USAID, state, other agencies, all uh DFC all doing our pieces of this, 01:09:08.149 --> 01:09:12.419 uh, project, but also along with, uh, Australia and Canada, 01:09:12.819 --> 01:09:13.870 uh sorry, Australia, Japan. 01:09:14.608 --> 01:09:20.298 Um, also doing pieces of this project, uh, altogether, a lot of this capacity building, 01:09:20.469 --> 01:09:26.039 uh, the project preparation, but, uh, and this is one of the 1st 10 projects we certified 01:09:26.039 --> 01:09:29.918 under Blue dot and it passed certification rather easily again with some capacity building 01:09:29.918 --> 01:09:33.229 to help. So if it can be done in Palau with all the 01:09:33.229 --> 01:09:36.628 challenges of that, I, I think it could be done anywhere, but it takes a lot of working 01:09:36.628 --> 01:09:39.539 together in coordination and extra effort. That's a great point. 01:09:39.789 --> 01:09:42.949 Thank you so much, Ron. Dan, an example you'd point to for us to have a 01:09:42.949 --> 01:09:45.339 look at? You know, I think what's happening here in the 01:09:45.339 --> 01:09:47.970 United States with regard to transmission infrastructure is important. 01:09:48.379 --> 01:09:51.919 Uh, we released in the Department of Energy when I was secretary of SE what was called the 01:09:51.919 --> 01:09:54.540 SEM study. It just shows the, you know, how difficult it 01:09:54.540 --> 01:09:57.930 is to move electricity from New York to California, California to New York. 01:09:58.060 --> 01:10:02.459 You think about the development or the, the, the future development of additional resources, 01:10:02.580 --> 01:10:04.370 uh, renewable capacities and whatnot. 01:10:04.573 --> 01:10:09.913 The ability to move that, you know, solar powered electricity from Arizona to New York uh 01:10:09.913 --> 01:10:13.462 to support the, the peak demands here in the evenings, uh, 01:10:13.672 --> 01:10:16.132 things like that are very important and I hope that those go forward. 01:10:16.192 --> 01:10:18.783 I hope that, uh, you know, there's a lot of good, uh, 01:10:18.792 --> 01:10:22.143 language in the infrastructure bill that Elizabeth mentioned earlier. 01:10:22.513 --> 01:10:24.823 Um, I, I hope that the industry. 01:10:25.246 --> 01:10:27.636 sees that as the right incentive to develop this because, 01:10:27.925 --> 01:10:30.366 you know, when I listen to my colleagues in the government, with all due respect, 01:10:30.405 --> 01:10:33.445 I was one. I, I'm sure I said the same thing when I was in 01:10:33.445 --> 01:10:37.395 office, but, uh, the government doesn't build this, the private industry does. 01:10:37.525 --> 01:10:40.695 You know, the government at best provides the right incentives to do these things. 01:10:41.005 --> 01:10:45.485 So I'm hoping that the, the private sector, um, picks up on those signals and then moves 01:10:45.485 --> 01:10:48.706 forward. Thanks, Elizabeth. 01:10:50.169 --> 01:10:56.870 I'm thinking of a triple triple dividend project that's the uh 01:10:56.870 --> 01:11:01.720 the economic benefit is a little different from what we've been talking about uh I think it was 01:11:01.720 --> 01:11:07.680 maybe 2, a year or two ago the government of Belize, working with the Nature 01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:14.600 Conservancy and backed by the US uh DFC, um, did a debt swap they 01:11:14.600 --> 01:11:20.149 took. Uh, Belize had one big super bond that they 01:11:20.149 --> 01:11:21.189 were able to swap. 01:11:21.890 --> 01:11:28.700 For a big nature based solution project that included preserving and protecting 01:11:29.029 --> 01:11:34.089 some of their land, protecting blue carbon, sequestering blue carbon, 01:11:34.490 --> 01:11:39.970 some climate resilience impacts, and of course nature, and they were able to greatly reduce 01:11:39.970 --> 01:11:46.970 the debt burden, um, move believe out of a larger debt distress level and so that's. 01:11:47.500 --> 01:11:53.120 You don't usually find that type of nice confluence, but that was a really nice. 01:11:54.419 --> 01:11:57.220 Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth. I mean you've filled me with a lot of optimism. 01:11:57.419 --> 01:11:59.049 I really, really appreciate your insights. 01:12:00.040 --> 01:12:02.930 I think for me is just that everyone, everyone has a role here. 01:12:03.180 --> 01:12:06.660 There's a collective responsibility we all have, but from hearing your examples and your 01:12:06.660 --> 01:12:09.410 insights, I think we should feel pretty positive about this future. 01:12:09.620 --> 01:12:13.370 But please join me in thanking Roland, Dan, and Elizabeth for sharing their great insights. 01:12:15.109 --> 01:12:17.120 Thank One second, one second. 01:12:17.939 --> 01:12:21.479 And let me now just welcome Michael Flynn, uh, to the stage for some closing thoughts, 01:12:21.580 --> 01:12:25.950 uh, and, and, and key takeaways and, and Michael is Deloitte's global infrastructure 01:12:25.950 --> 01:12:28.450 leader for the public sector. So please welcome Michael to the stage. 01:12:35.080 --> 01:12:39.830 Thanks, John, and thanks, thank you to the panel, really, 01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:43.799 really fantastic discussion. I think it's always really helpful when you 01:12:43.799 --> 01:12:49.080 have that discussion and examples and it brings everything to life and so you're beginning to 01:12:49.080 --> 01:12:53.390 hear what infrastructure for good means when it's in practical projects. 01:12:54.040 --> 01:12:58.149 Um, as Pratiba mentioned and John, so, so for those of you here, 01:12:58.200 --> 01:13:02.319 we do have the hub that you can play around with and get behind the data a bit more behind 01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:08.770 here, but it's also online, so at infrastructure forgood.economist.com. 01:13:08.839 --> 01:13:12.839 So, um, that's there, plenty of data to get behind. 01:13:13.740 --> 01:13:18.089 But I would call out that this is not just today, for the last year, 01:13:18.169 --> 01:13:21.279 the team has been working so hard in terms of getting to this point. 01:13:22.240 --> 01:13:27.870 There's countless hours of research, you know, really impressive tool is the is the outcome, 01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:33.669 and it really is a testament to the hard work and dedication of the economist impact team, 01:13:34.049 --> 01:13:38.930 the independent advisory board, and that guidance and support from Duke University. 01:13:39.049 --> 01:13:43.089 So really, we thank you because it really is a great piece of work. 01:13:45.950 --> 01:13:48.430 But It is more than a data set. 01:13:49.229 --> 01:13:51.520 It is more than a barometer. 01:13:52.180 --> 01:13:54.720 And today needs to be seen as the starting point. 01:13:55.990 --> 01:13:59.740 Today it's it's a sea change, a movement. This is the opportunity, 01:14:00.029 --> 01:14:03.310 a commitment towards inclusive and sustainable infrastructure. 01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:09.720 Infrastructure that can change communities, lives, And economies, 01:14:09.899 --> 01:14:13.240 while also preserving that and protecting our environment. 01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:17.500 So we are at that important moment in history. 01:14:19.589 --> 01:14:21.020 You heard the plans. 01:14:21.299 --> 01:14:24.819 There's over 5 trillion spend of infrastructure planned. 01:14:25.620 --> 01:14:27.899 Every year for decades. 01:14:29.479 --> 01:14:34.339 So you have this opportunity to change the world with that amount of spend. 01:14:35.319 --> 01:14:40.700 And if we apply and and put that scale of spend coupled with that for good approach, 01:14:42.100 --> 01:14:44.770 This gives us the opportunity to transform the world. 01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:50.759 We don't get that too often. We have that opportunity. 01:14:51.879 --> 01:14:53.709 But in fact, we have that responsibility. 01:14:55.279 --> 01:14:59.390 To act now and build better societies for generations to come, 01:14:59.879 --> 01:15:01.830 delivering that infrastructure for good. 01:15:03.770 --> 01:15:07.669 So While today marks a small step in that ambition. 01:15:08.580 --> 01:15:11.399 You know, as the saying goes, what's measured is managed. 01:15:12.149 --> 01:15:14.819 So we must all be held up and be accountable. 01:15:15.810 --> 01:15:19.270 To enable that change in the market, and to help move that needle, 01:15:19.850 --> 01:15:21.959 project by project, year by year. 01:15:22.450 --> 01:15:25.720 And you saw from the data, there's lots of room, even in the best, 01:15:25.970 --> 01:15:28.060 there's still lots of space for us to improve. 01:15:29.379 --> 01:15:31.080 So none of us can be complacent here. 01:15:32.189 --> 01:15:33.750 So to you, horse. 01:15:35.430 --> 01:15:39.709 Everybody here present are the ones that are going to be delivering the projects. 01:15:41.129 --> 01:15:46.799 It's almost So we have that power to begin that and make that difference. 01:15:48.339 --> 01:15:52.359 But if he's heard already, this will only be delivered if we work together. 01:15:53.410 --> 01:15:56.930 Public and private sectors, advisors, investors, construction companies, 01:15:57.419 --> 01:16:00.339 technology, developers, you name it, there is a role. 01:16:02.049 --> 01:16:03.649 But we have to start with ourselves. 01:16:05.359 --> 01:16:09.750 Public sector, how are we evaluating? How are we prioritizing? 01:16:09.879 --> 01:16:14.589 How are we looking to procure? Are we insisting on the right things? 01:16:15.240 --> 01:16:18.799 Private sector, are we operating in a particular way? 01:16:19.770 --> 01:16:24.279 Are we looking at our supply chain? Are we looking at how we operate as businesses? 01:16:24.399 --> 01:16:28.430 Are we looking at how we finance in terms of sustainable sustainable finance? 01:16:28.970 --> 01:16:32.470 And it's only when we do that and not rely on the other guy to solve this, 01:16:32.919 --> 01:16:34.270 that's when we start delivering. 01:16:34.919 --> 01:16:40.279 And so it's up to us to take those principles of infrastructure for good into the future and 01:16:40.279 --> 01:16:42.959 have that lasting and long-lasting impact. 01:16:45.529 --> 01:16:48.660 So as we conclude today, a few thank yous. 01:16:49.040 --> 01:16:52.879 So our, our distinguished panelists, you know, thank you for sharing your expertise, 01:16:53.310 --> 01:16:55.990 um, and providing us with those, those perspectives. 01:16:57.169 --> 01:16:59.680 You know, your insights, I think, have broadened our horizons, 01:16:59.759 --> 01:17:02.589 have given us, you know, inspired us to just reflect. 01:17:03.740 --> 01:17:05.850 On what the future of infrastructure might look like. 01:17:06.910 --> 01:17:09.750 And why now is the time to focus? 01:17:12.080 --> 01:17:17.109 It's to provide that infrastructure with strong social outcomes and for our communities at 01:17:17.109 --> 01:17:22.000 large. But more importantly, All of you. 01:17:22.279 --> 01:17:26.169 I'd like to express my gratitude for you coming, those attending in the room, 01:17:26.279 --> 01:17:31.009 those online, um, and tuned tuned in to live stream. 01:17:31.200 --> 01:17:34.160 So your presence, your engagement, enthusiasm. 01:17:34.870 --> 01:17:40.100 has made this event a great success, but I think it's about being there for the next bit 01:17:40.100 --> 01:17:41.660 and being the start of this. 01:17:41.910 --> 01:17:43.379 So you are at the start. 01:17:45.270 --> 01:17:48.100 So before you go on with your day and we conclude the launch, 01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:50.270 I just wanted to reiterate a few points. 01:17:52.470 --> 01:17:56.729 We are at that moment We have an opportunity to transform. 01:17:57.919 --> 01:18:02.720 The way we deliver infrastructure, Everyone here has a role. 01:18:04.259 --> 01:18:08.180 The opportunity and the responsibility to drive that change. 01:18:09.509 --> 01:18:14.750 Drive for good. Will now, thanks to the economist team, 01:18:15.240 --> 01:18:16.799 be measured on how we succeed. 01:18:17.930 --> 01:18:22.279 Thank you. But by using the lessons we've learned, 01:18:22.830 --> 01:18:25.660 and the inspiration we gain today and from those stories. 01:18:26.529 --> 01:18:29.080 You know, we can work together to deliver. 01:18:30.709 --> 01:18:35.729 So As you network and go on your day and you think about as we progress, 01:18:36.299 --> 01:18:38.089 remember that this is the starting point. 01:18:38.689 --> 01:18:45.020 Remember we need to change and and bring these processes into how we operate in order for us 01:18:45.020 --> 01:18:46.129 all to be successful. 01:18:46.990 --> 01:18:53.950 But we need to commit together to innovate, collaborate and drive that positive change 01:18:53.950 --> 01:18:57.620 in delivering infrastructure for good and a better future for all. 01:18:58.160 --> 01:19:01.060 So thank you, have a great day and take care.