WEBVTT X-TIMESTAMP-MAP=LOCAL:00:00:00.000,MPEGTS:0 00:03.440 --> 00:08.540 Hello, and welcome to this series of interviews on the future of cities. 00:10.000 --> 00:11.400 Joining us today is Mr. 00:11.740 --> 00:13.660 Sameh Wahba. 00:14.140 --> 00:19.600 He's the Global Director at the World Bank, and he's in charge of Urban, 00:20.440 --> 00:25.000 Disaster Risk Management, Resilience, and Land Global Practices. 00:25.880 --> 00:30.919 It's my pleasure, Sameh, to have you here and welcome you to this series of conversations. 00:31.240 --> 00:33.860 Thank you, Miguel. pleasure for me to be here. 00:34.500 --> 00:40.080 So a direct question, what are the main challenges you would say cities are facing 00:40.120 --> 00:45.240 right now when, being attacked, let's call it like that, by COVID? 00:49.740 --> 00:56.560 So, cities have been totally at the, frontline of this, 00:57.020 --> 01:01.120 COVID-19, pandemic and the response to this pandemic. 01:02.300 --> 01:08.920 the pandemic has affected urban populations and affected, the, life of cities as we know 01:08.980 --> 01:14.060 it, livelihoods of people, and has had a multifaceted impact, 01:14.340 --> 01:17.040 economic, health, social. 01:17.960 --> 01:21.580 among other things, it has laid bare the inequalities that exist 01:21.640 --> 01:22.980 within- Yeah our cities. 01:23.020 --> 01:28.140 So cities found themselves having, you know, to do-- to take all the necessary measures to, 01:28.860 --> 01:32.240 reduce and curb the spread of this pandemic. 01:32.680 --> 01:38.700 So that led them to take policies about the closure of economic activities, lockdown for 01:38.760 --> 01:44.460 the population, which has affected, basically, all sorts of businesses, 01:45.460 --> 01:46.500 public and private. 01:46.540 --> 01:50.420 Has affected service delivery, has affected, in particular, poor people. 01:50.640 --> 01:54.310 The richest segments of the population could afford to stay at home, reduce their mobility, 01:54.400 --> 01:56.660 protect themselves from the spread of the virus. 01:56.720 --> 01:57.800 The poor could not. 01:57.940 --> 02:04.260 We've done some work on, mapping, COVID-19 hotspots, which allows us to calculate the 02:04.300 --> 02:06.700 amount of floor space available in cities. 02:07.340 --> 02:13.240 You compare that to the existing, population density spread spatially, and you can figure 02:13.320 --> 02:18.920 out which neighborhoods in a city can or cannot afford to, have their population in 02:18.980 --> 02:20.720 socially distanced arrangement. 02:21.080 --> 02:26.340 Having to maintain the delivery of essential services, things like garbage collection, you 02:26.380 --> 02:31.870 know, and so on and so forth, maintain it probably at higher cost, and at the same time 02:31.900 --> 02:37.760 plan for the new normal and jumpstart the recovery, all the while they're lacking 02:38.800 --> 02:40.240 their municipal finances. 02:40.540 --> 02:43.160 Why? Because the lockdowns, the declines in 02:43.200 --> 02:50.020 economic activities meant that cities on average lost fifteen to forty percent of their 02:50.120 --> 02:54.460 annual municipal finances because of the decline in tax revenues. 02:55.740 --> 03:00.540 this obviously has an immediate impact on the ability to maintain service delivery, let 03:00.600 --> 03:06.880 alone investment in, you know, improving, maintaining, and building new infrastructure. 03:07.600 --> 03:11.890 Thinking about the future and on future impacts, do you think that, the way we will 03:11.960 --> 03:15.420 plan cities in the future will be different because of the pandemic? 03:15.880 --> 03:18.300 Several things will change, without a doubt. 03:18.800 --> 03:25.520 The big trade-off that always happened in cities is the benefits of agglomeration 03:25.580 --> 03:28.980 versus the costs of poorly managed urbanization. 03:29.020 --> 03:32.060 As a result of agglomeration, you have increased productivity, you have knowledge 03:32.080 --> 03:35.800 spillovers, you have, you know, access to specialized services. 03:36.220 --> 03:39.840 The cost when urbanization is not managed well are well known. 03:40.000 --> 03:44.700 It's the congestion, it's the pollution, air pollution, water pollution. 03:45.320 --> 03:46.600 It's the crime and violence. 03:47.260 --> 03:51.440 It's the inability to access affordable housing if housing and 03:51.480 --> 03:53.160 land markets are distorted. 03:53.500 --> 03:58.440 You know, the challenges of not being able to, you know, maintain nature or that symbiotic 03:58.500 --> 04:01.350 relationship between nature and, urban development. 04:01.980 --> 04:08.500 So clearly, as a result of the pandemic, all these dimensions will start getting much more 04:08.540 --> 04:09.560 into consideration. 04:09.600 --> 04:16.320 For starters, from a land use planning and zoning perspective, a few things will change. 04:16.440 --> 04:20.760 Things related to infrastructure standards, you know, the upgrading of 04:20.800 --> 04:22.480 slums and informal settlements. 04:22.800 --> 04:24.920 public space, design parameters. 04:25.020 --> 04:29.160 Thinking about the integration of nature and urbanization. 04:29.460 --> 04:32.000 Thinking about how do we plan peri-urban areas. 04:32.160 --> 04:38.700 Rethinking mobility systems, so how will public transit adapt to health risk, you know, 04:38.800 --> 04:43.180 in terms of, densities, availability, and frequency of service? 04:43.540 --> 04:48.900 But also, how do you introduce other forms of transportation, especially non-motorized 04:48.940 --> 04:53.780 transportation like bicycle lanes, wider sidewalks for walking, et cetera? 04:54.180 --> 04:58.260 In the long run, that gradual transformation towards the so-called fifteen-minute city. 04:58.700 --> 05:03.280 Lastly, and that's another very big variable, it's the future of work. 05:03.740 --> 05:07.800 So it requires strengthening the digital infrastructure of cities, but it will 05:07.860 --> 05:13.940 obviously have an impact on, basically land markets and the distribution of the land grade. 05:14.160 --> 05:18.260 Much more co-working spaces, much more mixity of land uses to create 05:18.300 --> 05:19.560 more livable environments. 05:20.720 --> 05:27.640 so the city will transform in, in many, many ways as a result of this crisis to become, A, 05:27.680 --> 05:32.820 a more inclusive cities and, B, to become a more livable city. 05:34.620 --> 05:41.280 If you had to choose, what are the three main trends, 05:42.660 --> 05:46.300 that you see for twenty-thirty, what those three big trends would be? 05:46.500 --> 05:52.610 These will be the intersection of the main forces, if you want, shaping our world today. 05:52.840 --> 05:56.840 So, so our world today, the, the major driving forces are urbanization. 05:57.200 --> 06:01.620 The second one is obviously conflict, which is on the rise, and with it, its impact on 06:01.640 --> 06:03.080 dis-displacement, et cetera. 06:03.780 --> 06:07.980 The third is climate change, which is, if you will, the, the biggest wave. 06:08.080 --> 06:10.680 So climate change, and then obviously, technology. 06:10.820 --> 06:16.500 So you take the intersection of these four different forces, and that's where that city 06:16.560 --> 06:20.674 of tomorrow will be. So you intersectClimate change with 06:20.744 --> 06:27.324 urbanization, and you have a very important role for cities to be the 06:27.364 --> 06:30.484 drivers of the decarbonization agenda. Yeah. 06:30.524 --> 06:34.924 They're responsible for seventy percent of greenhouse gas emissions, so decarbonization, 06:34.964 --> 06:38.444 low carbon cities, that is one important trend. 06:39.264 --> 06:45.084 The second important trend, if you will, it's that adaptation, climate change adaptation 06:45.164 --> 06:46.423 meets urbanization. 06:46.484 --> 06:49.244 It's resilience, the resilience agenda in cities. 06:49.264 --> 06:53.404 When poor people locate into cities, the dysfunctions of land markets and housing 06:53.444 --> 06:59.344 markets mean that they go and locate in close to jobs in the unbuilt spaces. 06:59.814 --> 07:04.824 It's the landslide prone areas, it's the flood prone areas, et cetera. 07:05.154 --> 07:08.944 And this is where poor people end up locating, and their lives tends to be at risk. 07:09.084 --> 07:12.304 So these are two dimensions at that intersection. 07:12.364 --> 07:16.694 Of course, you'll get also, you know, technology meets urbanization, getting you a 07:16.744 --> 07:19.044 lot of work in that smart cities. 07:19.134 --> 07:24.223 All those trends, whether it's low carbon cities, resilient cities, or smart cities, 07:24.604 --> 07:27.824 will need to revolve around a people-centered approach. 07:28.224 --> 07:33.524 They will need to have people at the center, so an inclusive approach, working with 07:33.564 --> 07:38.284 citizens, ensuring that the poor are less affected or, or, you know, protected against 07:38.324 --> 07:40.464 the impact of climate change, and so on and so forth. 07:40.864 --> 07:43.264 Let's now move to, to inclusiveness. 07:45.124 --> 07:47.624 and of course linking that also to, to technology. 07:49.824 --> 07:54.444 a- as, as we have discussed, I would say this pandemic, and n- not just the pandemic, even 07:54.464 --> 07:58.244 before the pandemic, there is a lot of inequalities even in, in, in 07:58.314 --> 07:59.724 urban, in urban ecosystems. 08:00.304 --> 08:02.044 What do you think can be done? 08:02.244 --> 08:08.064 What are the critical success factors or, or, or w- what should be done in order to make our 08:08.204 --> 08:13.454 cities more inclusive in the future, also based on your, big experience on, 08:14.224 --> 08:16.824 working with several urban ecosystems around the world? 08:16.864 --> 08:20.814 And, and what, what could be the role, of course, of technology on that process? 08:21.404 --> 08:28.164 There's three dimensions to exclusion in cities, you know, and, and that we have to 08:28.183 --> 08:30.404 work on to achieve a really inclusive city. 08:31.364 --> 08:34.524 The first is spatial exclusion. 08:34.624 --> 08:39.174 It's the inability to access land, to access housing, to access services, to access 08:39.244 --> 08:42.064 infrastructure, and to access public space. 08:42.824 --> 08:45.313 The second is economic exclusion. 08:45.884 --> 08:51.424 So it's the inability to access job opportunities and, you know, 08:51.884 --> 08:53.404 economic, opportunities. 08:53.504 --> 08:56.584 And the third is social exclusion. 08:56.624 --> 09:00.564 It's not having voice, agency, and accountability. 09:01.404 --> 09:03.804 So working on all those three dimensions become key. 09:04.364 --> 09:09.804 The reason poor people, you know, have their lives at risk is that their trade-off is 09:10.284 --> 09:17.044 either live closer to where, the jobs are, and here they live in 09:17.104 --> 09:21.164 marginal land, landslide prone areas, flood prone areas, et cetera. 09:22.024 --> 09:27.484 So basically they're choosing economic opportunity over their own livability. 09:27.944 --> 09:29.624 Or they'll go and live at the periphery. 09:30.054 --> 09:33.914 That trade-off is because land and housing markets are dysfunctional, so fixing land and 09:33.944 --> 09:37.424 housing markets is the first critical intervention. 09:38.124 --> 09:43.824 And that in of itself will enable a better access as well to economic opportunities. 09:44.304 --> 09:46.024 The third is about citizen engagement. 09:46.744 --> 09:48.224 It's about voice and accountability. 09:48.304 --> 09:54.024 It's about taking part in shaping the future of your cities into identifying what are the 09:54.084 --> 09:57.004 priority investments for you at the neighborhood level, at the city level, 09:57.504 --> 10:01.984 participating in influencing the direction that your city is taking. 10:02.364 --> 10:04.864 So technology has a major role to play in all these. 10:04.924 --> 10:09.564 It has a major role to play in, you know, through strengthening land administration 10:09.644 --> 10:15.484 systems and geospatial infrastructure, to strengthening land rights, and with it, you 10:15.524 --> 10:20.184 know, the protection of land rights and availing to the poor, situations where they 10:20.224 --> 10:24.084 can live and access land and housing without insecurity of tenure. 10:25.184 --> 10:30.064 Technology has an important role to play in citizen engagement, in urban policymaking, 10:30.604 --> 10:36.344 which is critical, and technology has an important role as well in that inabil- in that 10:36.464 --> 10:41.734 ability to enable people to access jobs and to match the skills with, the 10:41.804 --> 10:45.904 needs of the labor market. What impo- importance would you give to, smart 10:45.984 --> 10:52.224 buildings and smart infrastruc- smart and sustainable, I would say, on, achieving our 10:52.264 --> 10:55.834 objectives regarding the resilience of cities and the sustainability of cities? 10:56.184 --> 11:02.724 There's a lot that, if you will, smart buildings and smart infrastructure, have to 11:02.764 --> 11:08.654 bring, in terms of contributing to making cities more inclusive, more resilient, and 11:08.724 --> 11:09.784 more, livable. 11:09.864 --> 11:13.664 The building sector is responsible for a large share of emissions, and typically can range 11:13.704 --> 11:15.264 around the thirty, forty percent mark. 11:16.214 --> 11:18.934 Okay. So having, greener buildings, buildings that 11:18.984 --> 11:25.124 are more resource efficient, building that, you think about in terms of life cycle costing, 11:26.004 --> 11:30.324 would be critical both for our ability to align with the Paris Agreement, but also for 11:30.384 --> 11:35.044 making these building more responsive and adapted to, people's needs. 11:35.904 --> 11:41.194 so in terms of, you know, accessibility, in terms of, you know, adaptability of the spaces, 11:41.284 --> 11:45.004 et cetera. similarly with, with smart infrastructure, I 11:45.064 --> 11:52.004 mean, I think about, you know, intelligent, traffic, systems that, you know, things that 11:52.044 --> 11:57.684 could enable, you know, congestion pricing, that could enable, you know, identifying, 11:57.784 --> 12:04.584 enabling, you know, you know, consumers or, urban residents to identify, 12:05.104 --> 12:11.244 you know, rides, mobility systems, you know, all the information that geospatial can bring 12:11.284 --> 12:15.344 towards making that infrastructure more responsive, as well as enabling the efficiency 12:15.384 --> 12:18.624 of service delivery. You know, garbage collection, water, 12:18.704 --> 12:19.784 sanitation, et cetera. 12:20.064 --> 12:24.604 I tend to, you know, not really like that label of smart cities because I don't think 12:24.644 --> 12:26.492 there are dumb cities out there. 12:26.912 --> 12:29.141 Yeah. You know, I think there are cities that just, 12:29.232 --> 12:34.832 you know, need to harness technology to better serve their needs, and that will vary from one 12:34.852 --> 12:38.992 city to the other, depending on their needs, depending on their ability to leapfrog, 12:39.372 --> 12:40.992 depending on their capacity, et cetera. 12:41.832 --> 12:46.772 As we know, World Bank in partnership of course with other institutions, has recently 12:46.832 --> 12:53.692 launched the, the fund, the, a fund, the City Climate Finance Gap Fund, to fi- 12:53.712 --> 12:56.932 to, to finance, climate, I would say, smart projects. 12:58.132 --> 13:01.872 could you give, a bit of background on that? 13:01.952 --> 13:03.352 What's the purpose? What's the scope? 13:03.912 --> 13:09.452 And some recommendations for how cities can, can better access to this fund. 13:10.392 --> 13:17.292 So the City Climate Finance Gap Fund, which, is, being, managed by both 13:17.352 --> 13:22.312 the World Bank and the European Investment Bank- Yeah with, seed funding from the 13:22.692 --> 13:29.272 government of Germany, both BMZ and BMU, and the government of Luxembourg, has as an 13:29.332 --> 13:36.252 objective to, help cities in that intermediate part of taking it 13:36.372 --> 13:42.772 from a high-level idea to concretizing and working across the pre-feasibility stage, 13:43.292 --> 13:49.672 such that the project can then be, either taken towards a multilateral development bank, 13:49.792 --> 13:53.272 a national development bank, a private investor, et cetera. 13:53.632 --> 13:55.772 So this is g- the gap that it's trying to fill. 13:56.392 --> 14:01.772 As I've managed, there are two entities that are both operating with the Gap Fund, and we 14:01.892 --> 14:06.412 have a website where all the information about the Gap Fund, it was just launched in the 14:06.472 --> 14:08.952 Climate Summit in, 2020, in September. 14:10.972 --> 14:13.732 and, it's now accepting proposals. 14:13.792 --> 14:16.592 The first few grants have been, administered. 14:16.612 --> 14:18.682 What's your view on, on public-private partnerships? 14:18.732 --> 14:21.532 Because sometimes they are not that easy. 14:21.832 --> 14:25.012 around the way, it's something that is, is, it's, it's, it's getting more and more 14:25.092 --> 14:29.812 critical e- even to bring private investment, private investments to the urban ecosystems. 14:30.212 --> 14:33.492 How, how do you, how do you see these, public-private, private 14:33.572 --> 14:34.712 partnerships developing? 14:35.632 --> 14:41.292 So they are critically important, and that's because the funding that's available, either 14:41.352 --> 14:45.672 from concessional funding, like places like the World Bank and the others, is limited 14:45.772 --> 14:47.072 relative to the needs of cities. 14:47.112 --> 14:50.052 To raise fundings, you need to work on multiple frontiers. 14:50.752 --> 14:54.612 One of them is helping cities improve their own source revenue generation. 14:54.652 --> 14:58.972 The other is helping national government structure more transparent and more 14:59.012 --> 15:02.212 predictable patterns of intergovernmental fiscal transfers. 15:02.301 --> 15:07.862 And then obviously the third dimension is, this public-private partnerships as well as 15:07.892 --> 15:10.552 creditworthiness and access to the capital markets. 15:10.652 --> 15:17.552 In certain cases, you might need to have, certain de-risking mechanisms to basically 15:17.592 --> 15:22.301 incentivize the private sector to take on opportunities that they otherwise might not 15:22.392 --> 15:23.872 have information about. 15:23.912 --> 15:28.052 And that's one of the examples that we have, where the World Bank and the Spanish 15:28.072 --> 15:34.052 government, have, developed a program for resilient city development called ReCIDE. 15:34.692 --> 15:36.712 Stands for Resilient City Development. 15:37.092 --> 15:42.852 And, this, program has access to the European Union's, guarantees, 15:43.932 --> 15:49.512 for, enabling, and de-risking private investment in resilient urban infrastructure 15:50.172 --> 15:53.692 in Sub-Saharan Africa and, the Middle East and the neighborhood. 15:54.372 --> 15:59.301 I would like to know, and, and of course everybody would like to know, w- how, how, how 15:59.312 --> 16:04.252 would it, how would it look like, the city you would love to live on 2030? 16:04.412 --> 16:05.852 You know, I was, I was born in Cairo. 16:05.982 --> 16:07.812 So it's a city that has the soul of Cairo. 16:08.432 --> 16:15.132 It's a city that has the urbanism of, you know, of Lisbon or f- Paris. 16:15.692 --> 16:20.812 It's a city that has, if you will, that vibrancy, creativity that you find in many 16:20.852 --> 16:27.792 cities around the world. It's a city that has, this, you know, energy. 16:28.332 --> 16:30.252 But most importantly, it's an inclusive city. 16:30.632 --> 16:33.332 Yeah. Because at the end of the day, if you have a 16:33.372 --> 16:40.232 city that's livable, that's sustainable, that's resilient, that's competitive, but it's 16:40.272 --> 16:44.192 not inclusive, then something is fundamentally wrong in that city. 16:44.752 --> 16:51.682 If the city itself is unable to accommodate the, its essential workers with 16:51.712 --> 16:58.412 affordable housing, with accessible locations, et cetera, then either the city will lose 16:58.422 --> 17:03.032 these essential workers, or obviously the wages will mushroom out of proportion to be 17:03.092 --> 17:08.042 able to, enable access to otherwise unaffordable housing, and 17:08.052 --> 17:09.892 that will impact the city. 17:09.952 --> 17:16.372 So inclusion is not a feel-good thing or I mean, obviously it is about equity. 17:16.452 --> 17:17.492 It's the right thing to do. 17:17.872 --> 17:22.832 But it is fundamental also for, if you will, the economic survival of cities. 17:23.372 --> 17:25.712 Sami, I want to thank you for your time. 17:26.072 --> 17:28.812 Of course, I want to thank you also for your insight. 17:28.862 --> 17:30.812 It will be very relevant for our study. 17:32.272 --> 17:37.312 it was my pleasure to interview you, and it's great to see that World Bank is doing, really 17:37.372 --> 17:40.632 impact that matters. And, and thank you again for your time. 17:40.992 --> 17:43.852 My pleasure. Thank you, Igna, and thanks, John.